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Post subject: Important! Only use apt-get for package management
 Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 01:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 1455
Location: England
Status: Offline
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Please ONLY use apt-get for package management in sidux
Package managers like adept, aptitude, synaptic, smart and kpackage are not always able to account for the huge amount of changes which happen in Sid (depedency changes, name changes, maintainer script changes, ...). That's not the fault of the developers of those tools though, they write a excellent tools and fabulous for the debian stable branch, they are simply just not suitable for the very special needs of Debian Sid and thus sidux.
Use whatever you like to search for packages, but stick with apt-get for actually installing/removing/dist-upgrading.
Better still, use kio-apt for package searches - http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-5555.html
It is a search-gui for packages without any install or upgrade options.
Package managers like adept, aptitude, synaptic and kpackage are at the least, non-deterministic (for complex package selection), mix that with a quickly moving target like sid and even worse an external repository of questionable quality (we don't use or recommend those, but they're a reality on your user systems) and you will be courting disaster.
apt-get on the other hand strictly does what it is asked to do, if there is any breakage you can pinpoint and debug/ fix the cause, if apt-get wants to remove half of the system (due to library transitions) it's the admin's call (that means you) to have at least a serious look.
The other item to note is that all of these types of GUI package managers need to run in init 5, and/or, in X, and in doing a dist-upgrade in init 5 and/or X , (or even an 'upgrade' which is not recommended), you will end up damaging up your system beyond repair, maybe not today or tomorrow, in time you will.
NEVER do a dist-upgrade nor upgrade whilst in X
It is especially important that you do not try to upgrade major components such as KDE and XORG and their dependencies while they are still running as it is likely this would lead to breakages.
Unlike most distros, KDE and Xorg are updated quite frequently in Sid.
apt-get is the only package management tool supported and recommended in sidux
There is one exception to this rule - h2's smxi tool, which runs in runlevel 3 and itself uses apt-get.
This is probably the safest way to dist-upgrade in sidux as it warns of potential problems and will also deal with many of those problems by holding troublesome packages until it is safe to upgrade them.
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But I've used <insert package manager here> lots of times and I've never had any problems.
You may not have had any problems... YET, that doesn't mean you won't.
And can you be so sure you haven't had any problems?
Maybe you have noticed more and more niggling little problems over time?
Maybe you have noticed strange errors or warnings on boot up lately?
The thing is, issues caused by upgrading in X or by using other package managers may not be immediately apparent and by the time they are, it may be too late to save your system.
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But other distros don't seem to have a problem with using graphical package managers
The reason you will find Adept, Synaptic, Smart or any other similar application recommended in other distributions is simple: Unlike sidux,they are based on STATIC REPOSITORIES, where changes after the initial release are rare and usually also well tested.
Debian Sid is not like other distros. It does not have a release cycle, the upgrades are raw, and happen in real time. There is no protected pool to draw from, like all other major distros maintain. There is no sidux 6, or sidux edgy, etc, there is just a point of entry into the pure sid pool, with some protection provided by the sidux repos. Once you begin to upgrade safely and routinely, you do not need to reinstall.
Debian Sid is the development branch of Debian and is not designed to be used on production systems.
Where sidux is unique is that it's goal is to make Debian Sid stable and this goal can only be achieved if sidux is used in a way supported and recommended by the sidux team.
References:
h2's smxi:
http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-24.html
http://techpatterns.com/forums/about736.html
APT HOWTO:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-h ... ex.en.html
Useful apt-get commands:
Code:
Commands:
update - Retrieve new lists of packages
upgrade - Perform an upgrade
install - Install new packages (pkg is libc6 not libc6.deb)
remove - Remove packages
purge - Remove and purge packages
source - Download source archives
build-dep - Configure build-dependencies for source packages
dist-upgrade - Distribution upgrade, see apt-get(8)
dselect-upgrade - Follow dselect selections
clean - Erase downloaded archive files
autoclean - Erase old downloaded archive files
check - Verify that there are no broken dependencies
Options:
-h This help text.
-q Loggable output - no progress indicator
-qq No output except for errors
-d Download only - do NOT install or unpack archives
-s No-act. Perform ordering simulation
-y Assume Yes to all queries and do not prompt
-f Attempt to continue if the integrity check fails
-m Attempt to continue if archives are unlocatable
-u Show a list of upgraded packages as well
-b Build the source package after fetching it
-V Show verbose version numbers
-c=? Read this configuration file
-o=? Set an arbitrary configuration option, eg -o dir::cache=/tmp
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sidux 32 & 64 | Debian Lenny | Debian Etch | PCLinuxOS | Mandriva Cooker
repository of shame - compiz fusion & beryl repo for sidux/debian | 32-bit | 64-bit
Last edited by shame on Aug 28, 2007 - 01:31 AM; edited 5 times in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 1455
Location: England
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This is meant to be a sticky to refer people to, in order to avoid having to go over why sidux doesn't recommend graphical package managers.
As the issue comes up time and time again this is intended to be a sticky to refer people to, in order to avoid having to go over why sidux doesn't recommend graphical package managers.
Whether or not people agree with it or not and whether they follow the advice or not is up to them.
This is just to point out why sidux doesn't support them and why. |
_________________
sidux 32 & 64 | Debian Lenny | Debian Etch | PCLinuxOS | Mandriva Cooker
repository of shame - compiz fusion & beryl repo for sidux/debian | 32-bit | 64-bit
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Post subject: RE: Important! Only use apt-get for package management
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 683
Status: Offline
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Quote:
Package managers like adept, aptitude, synaptic, smart and kpackage are not always able to account for the huge amount of changes which happen in Sid
So they are not front ends but actual separate package managers with their own unique package dependency algorithms? They can account for the upgrades, but upgrading applications it is currently using to upgrade (X, KDE, qt, gtk) is the dangerous part.
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Use whatever you like to search for packages, but stick with apt-get for actually installing/removing/dist-upgrading.
Thats almost the same as saying, "You can find applications you want to launch through the K-Menu, but you need to launch them through konsole or the run box (alt+f2)"
I think what you mean is, Use whatever you like to search for and remove or install new packages, but any installations requiring upgrades should be done in apt-get to remove points of failure. ALL upgrades that upgrade running applications such as X and KDE should be done in init 3 to remove all software points of failure and reduce the chance of ever reinstalling your operating system in the future.
Ok, I think this is what should be added to clear things up. Make instances of when applications like synaptic are fine.
Example: Synaptic would be fine in an instance where you are finding packages to install or remove.
1. I am running out of space so I use Synaptic to find the largest sized packages and determine which ones I won't need.
or
2. I need find and install a bunch of wireless logging packages and test them all out.
Sorry, even though this topic is very worn out, at some point you guys just seem to post down irrational thoughts that sound like various religious groups refusing to consider anything than what is hard coded into their "holy" bible. Feel free to flame me. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:43 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 1455
Location: England
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I prefer not to flame anyone and you are of course entitled to your opinion.
If YOU don't agree with what is written YOU don't have to follow it, neither does anyone else.
This is simply a collection of information as to why it isn't recommended by sidux. It isn't necessarily my own opinions but I do choose to follow any advice given by people who know far more about these things than I do.
I think it is important that new users are aware of these things and that they are not advised to ignore warnings.
Maybe ignoring the advice wouldn't cause problems but it's important people are aware that it could.
Also, launching an application is hardly the same thing as it doesn't have any affect on the rest of the system. |
_________________
sidux 32 & 64 | Debian Lenny | Debian Etch | PCLinuxOS | Mandriva Cooker
repository of shame - compiz fusion & beryl repo for sidux/debian | 32-bit | 64-bit
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:49 AM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 683
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Quote:
Also, launching an application is hardly the same thing as it doesn't have any affect on the rest of the system.
Right, because synaptic uses apt for all the grunt work, so whats wrong with synaptic installing single or sets of packages (not upgrading) when its using the same command you would have typed into a terminal? |
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"Cool was never cool until the cool guys at Cool industries developed a cool new product: Cool."
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 30, 2006
Posts: 554
Location: USA
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:55 AM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 683
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| It was bound to be discussed to death, everyone seems to have conflicting ideas on how exactly your installation should be maintained. |
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"Cool was never cool until the cool guys at Cool industries developed a cool new product: Cool."
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 02:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 1455
Location: England
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| Well maybe this thread can be used for healthy debate rather than it coming up in different threads all the time? |
_________________
sidux 32 & 64 | Debian Lenny | Debian Etch | PCLinuxOS | Mandriva Cooker
repository of shame - compiz fusion & beryl repo for sidux/debian | 32-bit | 64-bit
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 06:46 AM
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Joined: Dec 19, 2006
Posts: 784
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| Shame, thanks for taking the time and effort to explain what you have above. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 08:10 AM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 375
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| Yes thanks shame- good post- and thanks h2 for moderating. This thread shouldnt be the place to CONTINUE the already stupid argument from the previous thread. This is for noobs to read and understand- and choose to follow if they want to do things the sidux way. Its not for users who have heard all the arguments already to start trolling- we've had enough already! Peace. |
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Linux user 403389 and Herbaholic Trichopath
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ / 2GB dual chan ddr2 800/ gigabyte ga-m61sme-s2
sidux -64 Gaia
Hackintosh Leopard
Win Xp (virtualbox)
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 09:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 1455
Location: England
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I sort of get the feeling I've made matters worse, unfortunately  |
_________________
sidux 32 & 64 | Debian Lenny | Debian Etch | PCLinuxOS | Mandriva Cooker
repository of shame - compiz fusion & beryl repo for sidux/debian | 32-bit | 64-bit
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 11:45 AM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 493
Location: Övarp
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Quote:
I sort of get the feeling I've made matters worse, unfortunately Confused
I think you did good shame. 
For me it's quite simple. sidux developers say, "use apt-get for all installations, uninstallations and d-u". Thats what they support. Thats what I read and follow. If somebody whants to do different it's up to them. For new users, read and learn, read shames text, read manual and then act after that or act as you want to and take the responsibility for that. |
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"Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose! You're on!"
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 11:47 AM
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Joined: Dec 03, 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Europe
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No, you didn't make it worse.
Actually, I find this thread to be highly interesting. It's just a well-written resumé of the ever so long discussion about these package managers.
I simply don't understand why people *still and agaiN* discuss it over and over and over. It has been said to use apt-get for installing/removing/upgrading, and synaptic & co for package search. So why is it so difficult to do so - okay, you're free to do whatever you want, but it's just plain better to follow the advice of the developers and long-time users - besides the fact that apt-get is just more comfortable when you get used to it and its command line options.
You can compare it to the "good/bad burn" discussion. Burn your disks DAO, low speed etc. pp., you know the rest. [getting nervous...]
So just follow the advice of people who *know* what they're talking about, especially if they know more than *you*. |
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"La liberté, c'est de pouvoir choisir celui dont on sera l'esclave." (J. Moreau)
sidux64/Nyx - Opteron 170, 2 Gb RAM, nForce 630a, 320GB + 250GB HDD
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 01:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 47
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Thank you, Shame.  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 25, 2007 - 05:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 119
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Thank you for this interesting and very useful Thread. I think it makes it easier to have all this information in one place to which one can refer. Maybe there should be a link to this thread in the Manual?
Greetings |
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