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Post subject: A easy to use x application for upgrades
 Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Övarp
Status: Offline
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| If sidux shall attract users from other dists I believe that there shall be an easy to use upgrade or security upgrade application. H2:s script is fantastic but there are a lot of users out there who don't want to do console work. They want to install, use and let the machine do the rest. Should it be possible for example to make h2:s script run from x, and then doing everything by itself including checking if there are any upgrade warnings. |
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"Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose! You're on!"
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Post subject: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 30, 2006
Posts: 3480
Location: Budapest
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You can start h2's script in X, and it is leaving X then, and at the end of the upgrade duties it leads you back to X.
For conveniece reasons you can create a button which starts du-fixes-h2.sh with a mouse click and give it what ever icon you want.
But: it will leave X, and that's the way it has to be.
hubi |
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Bonitas stultitiaque sodales sunt.
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 4303
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Quote:
there are a lot of users out there who don't want to do console work. They want to install, use and let the machine do the rest. Should it be possible for example to make h2:s script run from x, and then doing everything by itself including checking if there are any upgrade warnings.
That would be exactly the 100% wrong thing to do.
Users who don't want to deal with upgrades in x have basically one future if they are planning on running dist-upgrades: failure.
So my script explicitly does not allow that because the very first goal of that script was to minimize failures.
Debian sid is not other distros, all other distros depend on awful upgrade paths that mean installing a brand new os every 6 to 18 months. As far as I know, only debian sid actually lets you keep a truly upgraded system running without reinstalling the os.
Just to be very clear: du-fixes-h2.sh will never run from x, it will never be a gui application, and all users who require a gui 100% of the time are in the wrong place.
It sounds to me like you want ubuntu to be honest, this isn't ubuntu, and ubuntu caters to that type of mindset. What you're suggesting is sort of the classic 'have your cake and eat it too', you want the most cutting edge distro around, but you want it to use compromise techniques just to make some user, who is afraid of typing in a simple command then reading some text so they can actually start to learn their system, not have to learn anything at all.
sidux is not about recreating all the bad points of the windows experience, it's about making a better, more powerful option. And it's successful. Windows users who want to never learn anything new would be well advised to either move to mac osx, or to stay with windows, or to use something like ubuntu or the other windows refugee oriented distros.
If this is what you want, you are in the wrong place I'm sad to say. If, on the other hand, you are just stuck in some bad habits and are willing to break them, you're probably in the right place.
You can't do a du and have everything 'just run by itself', that's a 100% guaranteed failure, for all users. Hopefully you're not suggesting that users should be given the option to with 100% certainty destroy their systems, are you? The goal of my script was to prevent, not create, system failures and du failures. This goal was I think fairly successfully achieved. Your suggestion would completely eliminate the improvement, and significantly worsen odds of failure. And all this just to avoid typing in a few characters into a terminal, and to not have to read anything, or do any thinking?
Again, and I want to make this very clear: debian sid is not like other distros. It does not have a release cycle, the upgrades are raw, and happen in real time. There is no protected pool to draw from, like all other major distros maintain. There is no sidux 6, or sidux edgy, etc, there is just a point of entry into the pure sid pool, with some protection provided by the sidux repos. Once you begin to upgrade safely and routinely, you do not need to reinstall.
All other distros that use that nice little gui thing are running from a protected pool of software, not from fresh releases made in the last few weeks. You cannot make a meaningful comparison to any other distro, except maybe gentoo.
As suggestions go, this is one that will never be considered by me. |
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sidux Maintenance script: dist-upgrade, kernel install, general utilities: smxi
Backup script [using rdiff-backup]: rd-h2.sh
Last edited by h2 on Dec 20, 2006 - 09:43 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 4303
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Just to slightly correct what hubi said: if you start the script as root in x, it will drop you, in most cases to init 3 and turn off all windows managers, then you have to login and run it again. Usually that's what happens, and that's by design, as well as just how it works to drop from x to terminal.
I'm going to link to this from the main script thread as a FAQ on why du-fixes will never be gui. Unfortunately, with rising script numbers, I've heard this 'suggestion' too many times, so I'd like to kill this entire idea before it has a chance to take any further root. The method used here works, and it was designed to help create a solution for something that has been contuinously, and empirically, proven not to work for users: upgrades in x. Hang out on irc for the next year and you'll soon see the pattern: new irc user comes in, x or kde won't start. First question: did you upgrade in x/kde? Answer: yes I did.
That is the truth of the matter, sid is not ubuntu, it is not fedora, it is not opensuse. It's the bleeding edge of debian, and if that's where you want to be, you should understand that there is a price for that, and that price is learning a bit about how to run things safely on your box. |
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sidux Maintenance script: dist-upgrade, kernel install, general utilities: smxi
Backup script [using rdiff-backup]: rd-h2.sh
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 751
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ignore this post  |
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Last edited by damentz on Feb 08, 2008 - 03:10 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Övarp
Status: Offline
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Quote:
That is the truth of the matter, sid is not ubuntu, it is not fedora, it is not opensuse. It's the bleeding edge of debian, and if that's where you want to be, you should understand that there is a price for that, and that price is learning a bit about how to run things safely on your box.
I don't need this gui update function, for me your script h2 is excellent, and I understand that using your script to this was a bad idea. The reason I suggested something like this is because of the discussions about sidux versus Ubuntu.
I still believe that if sidux want to attract a lot of users there need to be a gui update function. It can maybe be done in a complete different way, I'm not a developer so I can't really say how. Maybe once a week, or every month or something an update package or or something like that. Is it not possible to do a script or a program which take you down from x, do it's things and then come up to x again? |
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"Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose! You're on!"
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 09:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006
Posts: 43
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hi,
why not open a first Root Console and start your h2-script from there?
I did all my du's this way and it worked fine all the time.
At the end it takes you safe back to your X. |
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 10:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 4303
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| Exactly, which means that the very users oddball suggests should get an upgrade gui are the very ones who should NEVER do that, since he suggests that they should know and see nothing, and just proceed blindly, which will ALWAYS inevitably result in failure, since it is that very awareness of ones system that preserves it. |
_________________
sidux Maintenance script: dist-upgrade, kernel install, general utilities: smxi
Backup script [using rdiff-backup]: rd-h2.sh
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 10:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Övarp
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OK OK I get the point.
It was only an Idea to attract more users.
And again I have no problem with using h2s: script, in fact I do it nearly every day. |
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"Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose! You're on!"
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 10:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 4303
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It's a question worth asking, but I want to be very clear about why it will never happen, since it would actually eliminate the primary benefit to users, having their odds of breaking their system dramatically reduced by forcing them into safe practice.
Quote:
I still believe that if sidux want to attract a lot of users there need to be a gui update function. It can maybe be done in a complete different way
What you have to understand here is something very fundamental: ubuntu creates a protected pool of software for users to do their upgrades from. This is why they can use a gui, the software is pretested for that release version, and only that release version.
The words: sidux is not ubuntu, and ubuntu is not debian sid, are easy to hear, but hard to actually understand.
Using real debian sid has besically nothing in common with ubuntu, zero. except that ubuntu uses the apt tools.
Real debian sid has no protected pool, it IS UNSTABLE debian. It is not like it, it is it. Using unstable debian is risky, and requires some awareness.
Users who do not want that risk, or do not want to practice awareness, not only should, but must, use a distro like ubuntu, since otherwise their system will inevitably be destroyed if they try upgrading stuff without any awareness.
So the statement that 'if sidux wants to attract users, and be like ubuntu', simply makes no sense at all, it's not like ubuntu, it doesn't want to be like ubuntu, and it can't be like ubuntu technically. So obviously, you have a choice, if you want ubuntu, then by all means use ubuntu, that's what choice and free software is all about, users can choose what to do and what they need in their OS. |
_________________
sidux Maintenance script: dist-upgrade, kernel install, general utilities: smxi
Backup script [using rdiff-backup]: rd-h2.sh
Last edited by h2 on Dec 20, 2006 - 10:20 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject: RE: A easy to use x application for upgrades
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 10:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 30, 2006
Posts: 3480
Location: Budapest
Status: Offline
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h2,
thanks for clearing things up, I never ever started your script in X, I just saw that it takes you from runlevel 5 to runlevel 3 when started.
Oddball,
Kanotix had an upgrade-gui which did a d-u starting in X and then taking you out and back in again, but it was not as powerful as h2's script. But it was very nice especially for kernel-installations, but I do not know if it will be adapted for sidux.
And that script did not help you if you did not upgrade a box for a few weeks or months and system changes were needed. h2 provides that in his script. So h2 is really providing a very easy handlng of Sid if you are not able to follow the changes in Sid all the time.
Greetings
hubi |
_________________
Bonitas stultitiaque sodales sunt.
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 10:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 303
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
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h2's script is so well set out and self-explanatory that anyone who can't run it shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, or manage their own finances. The problem for the un-initiated is simply finding out how to start it.
Should we have a desk-top icon as standard, labelled "upgrade script - be careful", or whatever. It would require root passwd to run and drop you into init 3, with the script running.
This would help more users to abandon the stop-and-start nature of almost all other operating system upgrades.
As ever, I bow to the wisdom and discretion of h2 and the team. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 20, 2006 - 10:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 4303
Status: Offline
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Usually when du-fixes kicks you out of kde/x, it also kicks you out of your session, and you have to restart du-fixes, which means you have to learn to type those characters at some point no matter what you do
I did however include the option to start it in x if you want to view the -h menu, help, to see available options. That's obviously completely safe, since the script just shows the options, and exits. So no need to make people be in init 3/terminal for that when it's more user friendly to check out help options before running it. |
_________________
sidux Maintenance script: dist-upgrade, kernel install, general utilities: smxi
Backup script [using rdiff-backup]: rd-h2.sh
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 01:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 751
Status: Offline
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| EDIT: whoa, i should actually read the posts before posting - I have no idea what i was thinking when i said these things. |
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"Cool was never cool until the cool guys at Cool industries developed a cool new product: Cool."
Last edited by damentz on Feb 08, 2008 - 03:10 AM; edited 2 times in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 01:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 481
Location: NYC/NJ Shore area
Status: Offline
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| I wonder, Oddball, do you mean something like Kanotix-update-gui? |
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