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CyrusQ - Oct 18, 2007 - 09:17 AM
Post subject: KDE 4 vs. 3.5.x - Official Information Thread

Will we have the choice between KDE 3.5.x and KDE 4 or will we be forced to use KDE 4.0 with the final release?

slh - Oct 18, 2007 - 09:27 AM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4 vs. 3.5.x - will we have the choice?

Έρως will ship with KDE 3.5.8, not KDE4 - neither upstream KDE4 nor the debian packaging staging up in experimental are in a state to do otherwise anyways (at least not yet).

When KDE4 gets available in sid/ unstable (our releases are Debian sid-only, not a mixture of oldstable, stable, testing, experimental or even Ubuntu), we will have to decide which KDE to pick for a release (that might happen for Νυξ, but strictly depends on upstream and debian packaging roadmaps).

Technically KDE 3.5.x and KDE4 can coexist on the same system and switched between using kdm, but both will not fit in 703 MB at once... How to deal with the size constraints of common CD-R media remains to be seen. If KDE4 is ready for prime time by then, I could imagine KDE3 vs. KDE4 flavours or a small DVD release; the decision on that is still open.

Ge0rgy - Oct 18, 2007 - 10:42 AM
Post subject:

i wonder if KDE4 would fit on a CD-R alone!? Wink

if it follows the footsteps of some other "modern" operating-system, and especially its "eye candy" and all this, i would expect a release on 2 DVDs which has to fetch some gigabytes of patches from the web after install Wink

greetings,
me

DeepDayze - Oct 18, 2007 - 12:12 PM
Post subject:

a good question: should sidux be released on 2 cd's, where you have the livecd as it is plus an optional 2nd cd to hold another set of packages?

rodneyck - Oct 18, 2007 - 02:22 PM
Post subject:

DeepDayze wrote:

a good question: should sidux be released on 2 cd's, where you have the livecd as it is plus an optional 2nd cd to hold another set of packages?

I believe there is already an open discussion re this topic on another thread.

http://sidux.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB ... =sidux+dvd

DeepDayze - Oct 18, 2007 - 04:49 PM
Post subject:

rodneyck: posted there, thanks Smile

shame - Oct 18, 2007 - 05:36 PM
Post subject:

So won't kde 3.x be replaced by kde4 anyway through regular upgrades?

Personally I would rather wait for that to happen.

slam - Oct 18, 2007 - 05:54 PM
Post subject:

@shame: Exactly - and a very good decision. That's how Debian Sid/sidux works at it's best.
Greetings,
Chris

Ge0rgy - Oct 19, 2007 - 10:59 AM
Post subject:

well, sooner or later it will.

but i guess it will become very funny... the switch to KDE4 is a rather large transition, nearly everything in KDE got changed, backed on Qt4 and reimplemented.
so i guess there will be quite many library- and dependency-issues until it will work as expected.

i bet there will be many ppl. who break theiry system in the meantime with incomplete kde Wink

greetings,
me

slh - Oct 19, 2007 - 11:20 AM
Post subject:

Unlikely, because your current KDE 3.5 setups will remain, it might be that the new KDE4 parts won't work at first - but the proven to be stable KDE 3.5.8 is just a mouse click away (and I expect both to be available in the archive for at least half a year, before the "forced" transition kicks in).

DeepDayze - Oct 19, 2007 - 03:03 PM
Post subject:

i'd think that kde4 should be able to be installed alongside kde 3.5.x , until transition's complete at which time then a future kde4 update will then remove the kde 3.5.x packages.

maslot - Oct 19, 2007 - 07:05 PM
Post subject:

Is it really a problem? We have survived more serious transitions than KDE. We always can use alternative desktop environment.
I use sidux because it's bleeding edge. I want to use versions of applications as new as possible. So I'd like to see KDE 4.0 in sidux in the same moment it will appear in sid.

DeepDayze - Oct 19, 2007 - 09:18 PM
Post subject:

or smxi can put kde4 on hold/release until its ready

craigevil - Oct 19, 2007 - 09:24 PM
Post subject:

kde 3>3.5 was no biggie I seriously doubt 4.0 will be either. KDE isnt like Gnome that tends to break with every big update.

JackieBrown - Jan 10, 2008 - 02:36 AM
Post subject: KDE 4.0 released

It is trickling in experimental.

Kde 3.80 from the Debian repos has rocked!

I have not had a single crash using it.

And yes - it is in experimental so use carefully (especially the next day or so as 4.0 completes in experimental.)

butter - Jan 10, 2008 - 11:35 AM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

Hi JackieBrown,

con you describe how to install kde4? I would try it on my testmachine.....

Thx butter

slh - Jan 10, 2008 - 12:09 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/01/msg00001.html, in other words no imminent danger for sid until the end of the year.

JackieBrown wrote:

Kde 3.80 from the Debian repos has rocked!

I cannot confirm that at all, which is less an issue of the debian packaging (which is gaining shape), but the devastating shape of upstream's 4.0.0 "release".

devil - Jan 10, 2008 - 12:19 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

butter,
for the brave at heart: http://www.pro-linux.de/berichte/kde4-s ... ieren.html

greetz
devil

maslot - Jan 10, 2008 - 12:50 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

I find KDE 4.0.0 quite stable. The main problem is that it has no functions from 3.5.x we know and would like to use. It's just inconvenient in use and new features won't recompense it.

Richard - Jan 10, 2008 - 03:37 PM
Post subject: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

Just curious how the new Kde4 will enter into Sid.
Most of the point releases seem to come in all at once and usually present little problem, but I've not watched a major upgrade to Kde in action in Sid.

Will Kde3.5 be held in smxi for a while?

Should it be held locally, if desired, instead?
and what should be held to avoid mixing the two?

Kde 3.5.8.x is working very well at the moment.
Kde 4 seems to offer some benefits, but at the moment has lots of warts, at least that was my impression from the Kde4 LiveCD I tried. And lots of things have changed. Prefer to dip my toe in slowly.

Thanks,
Richard.

davewt2006 - Jan 10, 2008 - 03:49 PM
Post subject: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

Yes, I'd like to know how this will be handled. Is there a way of installing 4.0 alongside 3.5.8 and switching between them as one can between KDE and XFCE? Or is that too much to ask?

severin - Jan 10, 2008 - 03:54 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

davewt2006 wrote:

Is there a way of installing 4.0 alongside 3.5.8?

I doubt it. There's been a discussion over at debianforum.de about this, and this guy "Trigger." (claiming to package KDE for debian) said it won't be possible. (Link in german)

BenGoodrich - Jan 10, 2008 - 04:15 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

slh put this link in another thread
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-an ... 00001.html
To summarize, Debian is going to use 3.5.x for the Lenny release and is thus not in a hurry to put 4.0.x into unstable, but it is trickling into experimental now. Some libraries are planning to migrate from experimental to unstable soon, which means a few KDE4 apps like Okular will be able to run from 3.5.8. But the bulk of KDE4 is inconsistent with 3.5.8 and staying in experimental for several months at least.

Richard - Jan 10, 2008 - 04:25 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

Great. Very informative link! Thanks.

h2 - Jan 10, 2008 - 05:24 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

this is great news, and that's what I was hoping would happen, keep kde 4 out of sid until it's actually somewhat ready for prime time. Let some other distros deal with the first wave of bug handling etc, that sounds perfect to me, I like my kde working.

I'm also very glad to hear that lenny will ship with kde 3.5.x, that gives an excellent range of options for how to proceed with debian systems.

I plan on continuing to use both stable and sidux, each where appropriate, and Lenny with kde 3.5.x will make a great stable desktop/server, while sidux of course will continue to be a great advanced user platform.

mylo - Jan 10, 2008 - 05:30 PM
Post subject: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

h2,

my first answer to the question in the subject thread was "without me for the first 3 weeks!".

Is it possible to secure that in the script by an option? So that I can decide not to upgrade to KDE4 but wait 2-3 weeks after everything is in and more or less perfectly settled? So some trouble can be prevented for the people who do not have more than one box and have to keep it alive for what reasons ever? iThis will also minimize support actions to be done.

It is just an idea!

h2 - Jan 10, 2008 - 05:47 PM
Post subject: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

mylo, yes, that's a good idea, the same thought came to me too when i was reading this, just keep kde frozen via smxi option until advanced testers and debugging for the upgrade have occured.

But since lenny isn't close to release, and 3.5.9 isn't in yet, this should take a while, but that's a good idea to prepare in advance for that scenario by building a function to handle that option then activating it the day before the release happens.

mylo - Jan 10, 2008 - 05:49 PM
Post subject: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

fine h2! I will upgrade and test on my lappi and keep the desktop safe with the option!

JackieBrown - Jan 11, 2008 - 03:01 AM
Post subject: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

My goodness, maybe we should start tracking stable.

KDE 3.80 was pretty solid on the amd64 side and I'm sure 4.0 is even better.

If the argument against KDE 4.0 was that Debian does not plan on packaging Kmail (yes I read the links) or some other such package, I would understand. But to act like KDE 4.0 is a wreck or "not working" is simply inexcusable.

kelmo - Jan 11, 2008 - 04:28 AM
Post subject: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

See http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-an ... 00001.html

All you speculators and commentators of Debian Maintainer decisions over whether or not to ship KDE4 please be aware that the Maintainers must dedicate time for every bug and complaint brought forth for the life of a stable Debian release for the software that ships with it.

slh - Jan 11, 2008 - 11:23 AM
Post subject: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

...not only for stable, but also for oldstable.

Ge0rgy - Jan 11, 2008 - 12:05 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

Sad to see, that the KDE-guys call such a thing a "release" if the shape is that devastation as slh says, it's a shame!

KDE4 has potential to show even the most "beautiful gui is most important.." -Vista Evangelist, that there is an other side.
... well...
Good to see that there is no danger for debian unstable.
As i like QT 4 as a library, i prbably should take a look in the dev-packages of KDE 4 Wink

greetings,
me

heavensrevenge - Jan 12, 2008 - 08:21 AM
Post subject:

The transition is a replacement one so far on its release day of Jan 11/08, the Debian dev's should modify install directories and dependencies to make 2 completely separate installable desktop environments, hence kde3 & kde4 2 separate entities and 2 separate (but double size requirements and not overlap) self contained environments. At least give it its OWN chance, and not be a replacement yet, but an alternative.

michaaa62 - Jan 12, 2008 - 08:42 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: How will Kde4 enter into sid?

JackieBrown wrote:

Well, at least 3.98svn... is a wreck and not usable and a couple of desktop setting are still not implemented at all. This is far from what we all know from 'good old ' KDE 3.5.8.
Seems to me to be in a E17 kind of state: Use it on your own risk!

cheers Micha

DeepDayze - Jan 12, 2008 - 05:06 PM
Post subject:

Looks like kde4 is going to be in experimental until roughly end of this year to allow plenty of time for bug-fixing and stabilization before moving to sid. Makes sense as this is a major transition

davewt2006 - Jan 12, 2008 - 05:20 PM
Post subject:

As still something of a Newbie to all this, I have to admit to being rather confused. I kept up to date reading about 4.0, including the postponement of release by a month to work out some bugs. I also assumed that sidux, which supposedly uses the 'bleeding edge' of Debian would get it first. Now it seems that 4.0 will be in experimental for a year for testing before going into SID (which I thought was testing).

So what sort of 'release' is it where it still won't be available (aside from a fresh install) for a year? And what's the point of SID if something can sit in experimental for a year?

Seriously, I'm confused by this.

h2 - Jan 12, 2008 - 05:36 PM
Post subject:

to unconfuse yourself, you have to understand that debian sid is the 2nd of 4 steps in debian, experimental being the first. the purpose of sid is to work out bugs for testing, currently lenny. And the purpose of lenny is to be the pool from which the next debian stable is released.

So the focus is on stable.

Next you have to understand that debian developers are largely volunteers, doing this stuff because they like it.

So with these facts, you can understand it: kde 4 is a totally new desktop manager. Version 4.0 is not really ready for mainstream use, so it can't be considered for Lenny, and it will have a lot of bugs, so it can't be considered for Lenny.

Once kde 4.1 is out and basically working, it would eventually be a candidate for the next stable, but not Lenny.

So in order to keep the release possible for the next stable, debian is going to keep kde 4 in experimental until sid/testing is frozen prior to lenny going stable. Something very similar happened last year with xorg 7.3, by the way, and sidux likewise did not have it until etch went stable, then it was released into sid.

I hope that clears it up.

Personally, I really like this decision, I do not consider using buggy and/or feature incomplete desktops as interesting at all, if I want to use a feature incomplete desktop, I'll just run gnome.

Keep in mind, kde 4 will go into sid after lenny goes stable, so it's not so much a calendar thing, but when debian gets enough bugs fixed to release lenny as next stable.

Also keep in mind, sidux does not set debian policies, it follows them as much as possible. sidux uses sid primarily, so whatever debian developers have decided to do re sid, is what sidux does.

After a while this will start to feel more familiar to you, and these little delays will start to appear as they really are: part of the process of using debian sid.

Of course, the real risk here is that debian takes too long to finally release Lenny as stable, hopefully we won't see a repeat of past long delays to release the new stable, for example the 3 years for sarge. However, I doubt that this will happen, if it does, I'd say Debian would massively undermine itself, and give Ubuntu a massive boost in the real desktop/server world.

davewt2006 - Jan 12, 2008 - 05:42 PM
Post subject:

Thanks for the clarification, H2. That explains most of it clearly. My remaining gripe is that, as KDE 4.0 isn't ready for mainstream release, then yesterday's "release" seems to undermine the meaning of the word.

I'm happy to have a desktop that works as well as 3.5.8 and I'll wait for 4.0 but I do feel like the 4.0 "release" was a little misleading (at least to me).

h2 - Jan 12, 2008 - 05:49 PM
Post subject:

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html

That blog posting by kde developer Aaron Seigo explains most of the questions about why 4.0 was released in a state basically not ready for prime time.

The basic idea is simple: if they don't release it, distros and people won't use it, and developers won't work on it. So it's a chicken/egg thing, you have to release at some point.

This is just how it works in the free software world, since nobody in general is paying many of the devs, testers, or users, you need their enthusiasm to progress. In corporations, they can say, ok, we'll wait until feature sets x and y are complete, then release, and their workers program the stuff until it's wherever they were told to try to get it. It's a job, you do it, and that's it. With free software, it's not like that as much, so you release early, release often, to get developers interested and motivated.

davewt2006 - Jan 12, 2008 - 05:57 PM
Post subject:

Ok, that makes sense, thanks. "Meme 3" pretty much covers what I was thinking.

h2 - Jan 12, 2008 - 06:01 PM
Post subject:

I made this sticky (and merged in the other 2 ongoing kde4 threads), since obviously we're going to be hearing this question until Lenny goes stable and kde 4.x gets released into sid, and sidux has it. My guess: Freeze in 6, release stable Lenny in 9 months. We'll see if reality matches...

JackieBrown - Jan 12, 2008 - 07:03 PM
Post subject:

Not directly related to kde but I am surprised that lenny is planned to be released so soon.

hathe - Jan 12, 2008 - 08:00 PM
Post subject:

Hi folks,
just to inform you, I opend a irc channel for people who are interested:

#sidux-kde4

and wrote a howto for people who feel ready to try kde 4.0 Wink

http://sidux.com/index.php?module=pnWikka&tag=KDE4

Greetings,
hathe

infinitycircuit - Jan 12, 2008 - 09:50 PM
Post subject:

Thanks a lot hathe, thanks to his guide I now have kde4 running fine on my computer. It's very fast and stable for me, but I understand that is not the same for others so it makes perfect sense to hold off on moving it into sid.

d2kx - Jan 12, 2008 - 11:24 PM
Post subject:

I run KDE4.0 on a test system (it's great that we've got the choice to do so, KDE 4.0.0 is really not finished yet, feels almost like Gnome on that part) and I've got one question... when there are new KDE packages at experimental, like 4.0.0-2 or 4.0.1-1, will my installation be updated to them? I mean, sid is used over experimental without pinning, but if there is a new version at experimental, will it be used? I would guess it will not be updated, and that is a problem. But I think doing the KDE4 installation steps again (apt-get -t experimental install kde...) should update them with no problems.

- d2kx

JackieBrown - Jan 13, 2008 - 02:16 AM
Post subject:

I cheat d2jk.

I use apt-get for my upgrades. Afterwords, I open synaptic. If the kde experimental package has been updated in experimental, then the package I have installed automatically moves to local.

If I see a kde package in local, then I know there is an upgrade available.

michaaa62 - Jan 13, 2008 - 12:38 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

But I think doing the KDE4 installation steps again (apt-get -t experimental install kde...) should update them with no problems.

Thats right, and i comes some handy tool like synaptic to check manually for versions, as there are so many packages to watch out for. There you could retrieve important info to set up your

Code:

apt-get install -t experimental ...

It is time consuming and i still have not found THE key libs or packages to trigger the whole of my KDE4 installation.
Be sure to leave out other experimental packages as they could wreck your sidux.

cheers Micha

UncleVom - Jan 14, 2008 - 05:05 AM
Post subject:

I've been playing with KDE4 on a sid/experimental box.

It is interesting shows tons of potential, but is missing enough stuff to be annoying.
I tried it also in OpenSUSE to make sure I was seeing the whole picture and I was.

Not ready for prime time, but an excellent view of what is to come.

I would advise anyone checking it out to also have a second windows manager such as Xfce installed since KDE3 and 4 can't really coexist.

UncleVom

JackieBrown - Jan 14, 2008 - 07:05 AM
Post subject:

I have been using KDE 4 solely now for a few weeks. I miss kmail and switched to thunderbird, but since Kmail does handle gmails imap very well anyways, this was an easy change.

The Kde 3 version of K3b works fine which would have really hurt.

I am curious what packages people find missing? I am also curious why those people don't just run the kde 3 apps until their equivelant is available? It's not like we don't run gtk aps.

I understand not wanting to use a desktop from experimental but I am tired of hearing how it is a "wreck," "lacking," unstable" ....

And remember that a lot more packages have been ported. We are waiting for the debian matainers to debianize them (and I am not one for rushing them. I prefer they take their time and continue to produce good quailty packages. I just hope they don't follow ubuntu's lead and rename every app with a -4. I understand renaming the package names to prevent conficts with kde 3 apps, but renaming the actual menus to display a -4 is just ugly.)

tbm - Jan 14, 2008 - 01:36 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

I am ready for 4.0!

Cheers,
Tom Wink

tbm - Jan 14, 2008 - 01:40 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

I am ready for 4.0 too!

Cheers,
Tom Wink

severin - Jan 14, 2008 - 04:03 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE 4.0 released

Question is: is 4.0.0 ready for you? Laughing

wilberfan - Jan 14, 2008 - 07:36 PM
Post subject: KDE4 not the same as KDE 4.0?!

I didn't know there was this distinction... I found this post very useful:

http://linux.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/a ... ttle-more/

DeepDayze - Jan 14, 2008 - 07:59 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE4 not the same as KDE 4.0?!

I'd love to see kde4 to import your original kde3 settings as well upon upgrade. Any incompatible settings found a warning can be displayed and skipped.

UncleVom - Jan 14, 2008 - 09:21 PM
Post subject: RE: KDE4 not the same as KDE 4.0?!

The main problem I have with it, is the inability to make it look and function like I want.
For me an easily customized GUI is the reason I normally prefer KDE.
I do realize this situation is temporary and will be resolved in future releases, but right now an unchangeable panel, giant icons, floating widgets and the application launcher just rub me the wrong way.
In using it, one can see logical improvements and simplifications, but they are currently masked by a weird choice of defaults for the GUI, I'm hoping by the time 4.1 rolls around I will be able to adopt on my main boxes, until then it will be living on one box to test the advancements and the others will remain 3.5.x.

UncleVom

rodneyck - Jan 15, 2008 - 04:41 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: KDE4 not the same as KDE 4.0?!

UncleVom wrote:

I totally agree with all of this, especially the large icons, my pet peeve. It reminds me of something on a Fisher Price kid's toy. The only thing missing is the sound when you press it..."Aoooogha...Beep...Beep!"

Stop making large kickers and large icons by default.

wromey - Jan 22, 2008 - 08:50 PM
Post subject:

KDE 4.0 is for people, who want to get an impression of the newest stuff. Old people like me remember KDE 2.0 and 3.0 and know that KDE 4.0 is for testing, fun, ... but not for serious working. But it has to be tested to become as ripe as KDE 3.5.8. (See the difference? KDE 4.5.8 will rock!)

Thanks to the more than easy installation of virtualbox through smxi (huge thanx for that) i have opensuse and kubuntu with KDE 4.0 on my sidux box and can test it without risks. Maybe something similar is possible in sidux?

Crust - Jan 22, 2008 - 09:18 PM
Post subject:

Please don't flame me to oblivion, but I've volunteered and have taught free computer classes for the elderly. People have real trouble using a mouse and they have trouble recognizing icons. Large icons is a trend that is welcome for people just starting to use computers. People who are familiar with computers can change the icon size with ease.

That said, I do think that the defaults should depend on the intended audience for the distro. If complete newbies are included in the intended audience, I think large icons is a good thing. If not, then smaller icons should be the default.

Disclaimer: I use tiny tiny icons myself because I value screen real estate and like to have more information on the screen.

BenGoodrich - Jan 22, 2008 - 11:05 PM
Post subject:

According to http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/experimental.html

kdelibs5, kdepimlibs5, kdebase-runtime

can now be installed (from experimental) alongside KDE 3.5.x. It is not clear what KDE4 applications can be used with these libraries but the website mentions okular and konsole specifically

EDIT: Now in sid rather than experimental

nemesis - Feb 01, 2008 - 05:51 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

But it has to be tested to become as ripe as KDE 3.5.8. (See the difference? KDE 4.5.8 will rock!)

By the time 4.5.8 gets here, no one will notice the "rock-ness" of it because they will all be too anxious for kde-5.0 (sadly, me included)

DeepDayze - Feb 01, 2008 - 05:59 PM
Post subject:

And I'd bet KDE5.0 will rock even harder Wink

wromey - Feb 07, 2008 - 07:27 PM
Post subject:

I have just installed Okular of the kde 4 series in my kde 3.5.8. It seems to work well. I love the annotation tools.

JackieBrown - Mar 02, 2008 - 05:00 PM
Post subject:

Don't upgrade libgs8 if you enjoy using okular

severin - Mar 03, 2008 - 08:51 AM
Post subject:

by the way: is there a way to figure out *what* package is causing others to be removed? I caught apt on the brink of removing okular and aborted the entire process. How was I supposed to figure out I'd have to put exactly libgs8 on hold?

severin - Mar 03, 2008 - 09:04 AM
Post subject:

there is debate on whether to ship lenny with K4.

Quote:

There may be a possibility to include KDE4 in lenny. The efforts on
KDE4.1 have been quite promising and seem to be leading to a desktop
environment which can fully replace KDE3. The KDE team will provide
betas and release candidates of the 4.1 release in experimental. Anyone
interested is encourage to try them out and file any bugs found.

In the event that KDE4.1 is on time, and there are no major issues, an
upload to unstable in order to include it in lenny is possible. The
actual decision has been deferred for now.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/03/msg00001.html

JackieBrown - Mar 04, 2008 - 12:14 AM
Post subject:

severin wrote:

When I saw that it was being removed, I did an upgrade (not dist-upgrade.) That upgraded all the packages that did not add or remove packages. There were only one choice left so I tried upgrading it and sure enough ...

There's probably another method, but that always works for me. Then package goes on hold and I go back to my dist-upgrading.

Until an upgrade to Okular comes out, I know to leave that on hold. (It's the only way this will be fixed. If you look at libokularcore1 you will notice it depends on the exact version of libgs8.)

BenGoodrich - Mar 04, 2008 - 02:48 AM
Post subject:

An elaboration on KDE 4.1 possibly going into Lenny

http://ekaia.org/blog/2008/03/04/quick- ... /#comments

severin - Mar 04, 2008 - 08:24 AM
Post subject:

@JackieBrown: thanks for the hint.

JackieBrown wrote:

Until an upgrade to Okular comes out, I know to leave that on hold. (It's the only way this will be fixed.)

Shouldn't take too long. KDE 4.0.2 is set for release tomorrow

taffy - Apr 01, 2008 - 03:08 PM
Post subject:

Just to quote debianforum.de:

Quote:

Im Debian-KDE 4 land kann es übrigens jetzt ein wenig holprig werden. Wir sind gerade dabei, KDE 4.1 Trunk nach experimental zu packen. Aus der 4.0.x Serie wird nichts mehr in Debian landen.
Wir wollen 4.1 möglichst weit testen, um frühzeitig abschätzen zu können, ob es gut genug für Lenny ist.

Also: Nicht wundern wenn was schief geht und offensichtliche Upstream-Bugs unbedingt hier melden: http://bugs.debian.org
Fehler in unseren Paketen gehen natürlich am Besten direkt ans BTS.

http://www.debianforum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97490

Meaning: The debian KDE maintainers are just moving KDE 4.1 trunk to experimental and skip the KDE 4.0.x series.

texasmike - Apr 01, 2008 - 03:13 PM
Post subject:

For myself, I am in no hurry to migrate to KDE 4.xx. I would rather have a lil more stability.

armin - Apr 01, 2008 - 09:51 PM
Post subject:

I don not know whether Ana is joking because we have 1st of April, but this sounds really interesting:

Quote:

Important for KDE 4 users: KDE 4.0.3 and KDE 4.1 trunk
Von:
Ana Guerrero
An:
debian-kde@lists.debian.org
Datum:
Heute 15:54:22

Hi,

KDE 4.0.3 will be released tomorrow, but it won't be upload to Debian.
Instead, we, the KDE packagers, have started to work directly on KDE 4.1. We
are currently uploading packages to experimental with a trunk snapshot from
KDE's subversion. They are those packages named 4.0.6X+svnXXXX

This 4.0.6X packages include _big changes_ in some packages, specially new
stuff that made some packages go to NEW first, the upgrade path from 3.5.9
is not fully tested/fixed, and they are being uploaded for i386.
So if you are using another arch different of i386, you will have to wait
maybe 2 weeks or so for having packages for you arch, and if you are using
i386 you still will have to wait packages be accepted in NEW and do not be
surprised if they do not update fine.

My personal piece of advise:

a) if you are a 3.5.9 user waiting to test KDE 4, wait for at least a month
and then we trust KDE 4 packages in experimental will be nice to install and
KDE 4.1 will be nice to use as well.

b) if you are a 4.0.2 user, wait at least 2 weeks.

As always, pretty please only report bugs against pacckages in experimental
when it is clearly a Debian packaging related bug, for bugs in KDE desktop
itself, please use KDE's bugzilla.

Ana

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slh - Apr 01, 2008 - 09:59 PM
Post subject:

no jokes, that work is already in progress for a few days (and doesn't affect sid/ sidux users yet - that stuff only gets to experimental for the time being).

severin - Apr 02, 2008 - 07:31 AM
Post subject:

especially b) is seroius Wink

. I yesterday removed 3.5.9 but couldn't yet install KDE4.

Cathbard - Apr 10, 2008 - 03:18 AM
Post subject:

Well, after a couple of weeks of trying it is finally installing out of the experimental repo.
I've got it installed in vbox with a crap vid card so I can't activate all the fancy effects but I have to say that so far I'm not impressed. It's like Vista meets gnome - dumbed down like gnome and convoluted like vista. They seem to have removed a great truckload of options. I expected it to have more user features, not less. And that menu system? What a massive step backwards from fly-out menus. Time consuming clunkiness anybody? It's as bad as vista.
I won't go into my gripes here, I may start a new thread for that after I've installed it outside of vbox and given it a more thorough testing. All I'll say for now is that if this is what it's going to be like on the final release I'll be tempted to switch to gnome (with konqueror installed) - now that's saying something!
(PS: this is not because I will have to convert all my kde3 stuff because I expected to have to do that, I'm simply not impressed with it.)

h2 - Apr 10, 2008 - 03:58 AM
Post subject:

I was just exposed to the horrible new vista menus too, where they removed the flyouts, making them a total pain in the ass to navigate.

The problem in commercial software is that you always have to try to justify the next release, so you change things that were totally fine.

Hopefully kde 4.1 won't follow this ridiculous course, vista is so silly that you shouldn't emulate it, just be better than it, which isn't hard to do now.

I think at some point the kids who write this stuff will need to learn that you don't need to change the interface all the time to keep yourself amused, it's like a car, you have a steering wheel, brake pedals, things do what you expect them to do. Change the backend, sure, make it better, whatever, but this changing to change, I don't get it, it's counter productive.

spacepenguin - Apr 10, 2008 - 12:44 PM
Post subject:

I guess if someone finds out how to create a real menu as a plasmoid - so that one can kick that bugging kickoff menu off the screen - a lot of people would be extremely happy.

severin - Apr 10, 2008 - 02:31 PM
Post subject:

It's already there. Just select "Add plasmoids"

spacepenguin - Apr 10, 2008 - 05:02 PM
Post subject:

Found it. But how can I drag it to the left side of the panel? It's automatically placed at the right side and I cannot move it with the middle mouse button or in any other way.

dibl - Apr 10, 2008 - 08:52 PM
Post subject:

h2 wrote:

The problem in commercial software is that you always have to try to justify the next release, so you change things that were totally fine.

Hopefully kde 4.1 won't follow this ridiculous course

Well, yeah I think they kinda did just exactly that. I've been running KDE4 on my Kubuntu 8.04 system, for some weeks now. I went through the 5 stages of grief:

- denial
- anger
- bargaining
- depression
- acceptance

LOL.

Actually, you just get used to it, like everything else. It works just fine. Laughing

rangalo - Apr 11, 2008 - 12:25 PM
Post subject:

Hi

I have also tried Kde 4 on my kubuntu workstation.
It is at most disappointing for me. In the initial release you couldn't even resize the huge taskbar, now you can.

It seems to be heavy on memory too. I think it would take some time until it matures enough up to Kde 3.5.

I am happy that I will stay with my fluxbox all the time.

regards,
Rangalo

spacepenguin - Apr 18, 2008 - 12:09 PM
Post subject:

@dibl: nearly the same here - but I'm still in lack of "acceptance"...

The things I still cannot solve in KDE 4.0.66:
1. How can I change the width of the panel (I prefer a 90% width)?
2. How can I use different wallpapers for the different virtual desktops?
3. How can I move icons and applets in the panel (preferably with the middle mouse button)?
4. How can I use a color gradient for the desktop background?
5. How can I use a custom desktop menu for the middle mouse button?
6. How can I use custom icon sizes in dolphin? 64 is too small, 128 too big (prefer 72 or 96).
7. How can I adjust the font size for the clock, especially for the date?
8. How do I change the gui settings for root? There's no kdesu kcontrol anymore but I'd like to have different colors and icons for windows I open as root.
9. Where can I set up the mouse wheel to switch the virtual desktops?
10. Is there a way to make the ugly frames behind the desktop icons 100% transparent?
11. Is there a way to change the color of the panel and to make it transparent (different steps)?
12. Is there a way to let the pager show the desktop wallpapers?
13. How can I activate the filter toolbar instead of the google search when using konqueror as filemanager?
14. When I use a separate panel at the top ot the screen it doesn't remeber its size. I want a tiny panel at the top (for the running apps) and a huge panel at the bottom.
15. How do I save downloads to the desktop?
16. How do I get tooltips with file previews and file information in konqueror filemanager?

severin - Apr 18, 2008 - 01:09 PM
Post subject:

11. I don't know about transparency, but color is controlled by the plasma theme. At least in 4.0.68 this can be changed in Configure Desktop (by right-clicking your wallpaper)

texasmike - Apr 18, 2008 - 02:13 PM
Post subject:

I sure hope sidux doesn't get stinked up with KDE 4.xx yet. Still too much work to be done with it. Just my opinion, of course.

DeepDayze - Apr 18, 2008 - 02:43 PM
Post subject:

texasmike wrote:

I sure hope sidux doesn't get stinked up with KDE 4.xx yet. Still too much work to be done with it. Just my opinion, of course.

AFAIK, sidux will not ship any releases with kde4 yet until its stabilized and functional.

shame - Apr 18, 2008 - 11:08 PM
Post subject:

I've played around with KDE4 quite abit for a while and personally, I'm not sure it will ever be as functional as the current KDE3.

They seem to be moving away from what makes KDE so great but that's just my opinion.

piper - Apr 19, 2008 - 03:40 AM
Post subject:

shame wrote:

I agree 100%

This is gonna ruin kde, this is no laughing matter.

cheko - May 29, 2008 - 08:07 PM
Post subject:

KDE 4.1 Beta 1 (4.0.80) is now available in the experimental repos. You can install it with the help of the following howto: http://ekaia.org/blog/2008/05/29/how-to ... erimental/

Caution! It is still beta software!

shame - May 29, 2008 - 09:06 PM
Post subject:

I think KDE4 is best left to virtual machines, live cd's or disposable experimental partitions for now.

infinitycircuit - Jun 02, 2008 - 03:59 AM
Post subject:

For everyone's information, experimental is in really bad shape right now:

1) Konqueror can't connect because it "lacks the http protocol"

2) Iceweasel 3 won't start as its "platform version is incompatible"

wally - Jun 03, 2008 - 11:21 PM
Post subject:

infinitycircuit wrote:

Both of these works for me. (Using KDE 4 from debian experimental)

But this KDE 4.1 beta is really slow on my computer just now. I think earlier KDE 4 versions worked better on Ubuntu.

KDE 4.1 (when it's released) may be borderline usable, but I'm quite sure KDE 4.2 (christmass gift?) will be the next great thing FOSS world. Yes, 3.5 is better now, but KDE 4 already wins in some categories. For example program launcher, menu and KDE 4 version of Dolphin.

Remember that KDE 4 is still very incomplete, especially the panel. KDE 4 is so moddable, so you can make 4.x to mimic 3.5 if you want. Also nVidia users are doomed with quite slow desktop just now. Hopefully nVidia can fix this.

spacepenguin - Jun 06, 2008 - 12:49 PM
Post subject:

Well we can talk about dolphin, yes, it's way better than d3lphin! But it still is not that konqueror 3.5.x feeling. And that Suse menu is just horrible - IMHO. Talking about "moddable": I wish I just could use good old pngs to skin the panel... IMHO they made it a lot more complicated for the avarage user to adjust the look because those svg files contain more than one skin piece, reminds me of xmms- or Gnome themes. And AFAIK there is no way to mimic 3.5, at least not until now: I don't have files and real links on my desktop (no, that plasma box does not count), icons still have ugly frames, old style menu doesn't feel like 3.5 menu, I don't have the option to create an own desktop menu for the middle mouse button, middle mouse button actions (the big advantage over MS OS) seem to have vanished completely.

By now I still have the feeling of "Take the worst from Gnome, take the worst from Vista - et voilà: KDE 4 with Plasma". Yes I know it's still under heavy development and I stay curious. But I really hope they will add a real "classic 3.5" mode for the desktop (including pseudo transparency for the panel for systems without 3d cards).

To say something positive: I love the way you can resize the panel now.

Granjow - Aug 09, 2008 - 10:50 AM
Post subject:

spacepenguin wrote:

middle mouse button actions (the big advantage over MS OS) seem to have vanished completely.

WHAT?

Copy/paste?

Granjow

spacepenguin - Aug 09, 2008 - 02:25 PM
Post subject:

No - copy/paste still works. But for me that's not a KDE thing. I mean actions like moving icons on the panel or middle mouse button menus. The KDE devs seem to completely have forgotten that there exists a middle mouse button which you can use for a lot of things... But the middle mouse button suddenly seems to be "bad", as seem to be context menus. Looks like they want to put as much action as possible to the left mouse button, even if that is more complicated or takes longer Sad

grasshopper - Sep 19, 2008 - 02:53 PM
Post subject:

I recently tried the KDE 4.1 LiveCD based on openSuse. It looked nice and was very stable. It was not feature complete and I can't see myself using it on a day to day basis just yet. It is very usable, however, for any early adopters who love to be on the cutting edge of things.

I have to say I did not like Plasmoids at all. I know I will get use to them in time but they seem annoying at the moment.

bitpopler - Sep 19, 2008 - 03:41 PM
Post subject:

hi,

i must say i have not tried it yet (and probably never will). I just like my kde 3.5.x as it is now. It runs smooth on all my 3 laptops (hp big one (forgot what type exactly, but much power dualcore blabla...), my sony vaio and my eeepc900. Yes i know you can make kde4 look like kde3.5 but why the hell should i do that ? Just to waste my memory ? For me kde4 is a big mess. If they ever stop to support kde3.5 or kick it out of the repos i will surely change to xfce4.

I will not try it before i can have REAL Icons on my desktop.

greets

itus - Oct 05, 2008 - 10:02 AM
Post subject:

Is there a repository for kde 4.2 from svn?
In experimental there is 4.1.1 (and now 4.1.2) but I would try the new features in kde 4.2 (I think now 4.1.68...).
Is it possible? I can't compile it...
Thanks. Smile

infinitycircuit - Oct 27, 2008 - 04:41 AM
Post subject:

cleary edit:

please do not encourage the use of aptitude. I know you are a proud aptitude user, we proudly discourage it's use because of the increased risk of damage it can cause to a user's system.

Any users installing kde4 packages *should* have half an idea how to manipulate apt-get so it will do what they require, otherwise they will likely find themselves in a pickle with future kde4 package version transitions. If they don't have at least this level of knowledge, then that is a strong indication that they should not be testing entire DE's pulled from the experimental repo.
Allowing a tool like aptitude to guess at what packages to remove for you when the experimental repo/packages are thrown into the mix is even more dangerous than general aptitude use, and highly likely to put these users into a situation they are unable to resolve.
/edit

na5m - Nov 13, 2008 - 06:47 PM
Post subject: Menu paradigm sucks

I've tried KDE 4 on various distros and I simply do not like the menu system. I don't think it's an improvement at all over KDE 3. I like to "drill down" in a menu system, not bounce up down left right. And it seems like a lot of the configurability has been removed from 4. I like and am used to 3 (although visually speaking, 4 is quite beautiful to the eyes).

Steve` - Nov 13, 2008 - 07:02 PM
Post subject: Menu paradigm sucks

You can activate the old-menu-style with some simple clicks ...

BelaLugosi - Nov 13, 2008 - 07:07 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

Well,

it's on you, to change the K-Menu the way you want it. If you don't like the Menustyle, just rightclick on the K-Button and choose the KDE3-Style.

Quote:

And it seems like a lot of the configurability has been removed from 4. I like and am used to 3 (although visually speaking, 4 is quite beautiful to the eyes).

The configurability has not been removed, it's just not yet implemented. KDE4 will be (at least) as configurable as KDE3 is/was, but it will take some time (it took about 10 years for KDE to be at the state it is now in KDE3).

Ge0rgy - Nov 13, 2008 - 08:32 PM
Post subject:

+1

Everything new and different than the status quo is bad...
So i guess we should stop any Progress and return to stone Age....

KDE 4 breaks some old paradigms, sure. But that isnt necessarily a bad thing.
We are just too much used to the status quo that we stopped questioning if there is an other way.
After all this is opensource Software, so its only a matter of time until someonne implements one kde3.5 feature after the other and at the end everyone will be able to hav the system the 3.5 way or the 4 was, as he likes.
And don't just reduce KDE4 to its desktop! there are a whole lot improvements under the hood.
Dbus instead of dcop (and thus following the freedesktop.org specifications and be more compatible to other desktop environments) solid as hardware-abstaction, the phonon-backend.
There is even soe possibility that KDE kan be ported to windows (or MacOS) with KDE4, because Qt4 allows a better abstration than Qt3 does.
besides that, Icons on a KDE4-Desktop are not entirely impossible, they're jus tnot yet implemented... this is still a work in progress, don't forget that!

After all, there was a lot of work done in Kde4, its not badly engineered and has a lot of potential, so please think about that when bashing!

greetings,
me

Adadnarari - Nov 15, 2008 - 10:13 PM
Post subject:

Ge0rgy wrote:

+1
Everything new and different than the status quo is bad...
So i guess we should stop any Progress and return to stone Age....

Correct,
forget all this digital shit. Let's write on clay; we all should go back to cuneiform-writing Very Happy

Beste Grüße

itus - Nov 16, 2008 - 10:30 PM
Post subject:

Is there any repo with kde 4.2 from svn...?

Btw, I tried 4.2 svn and it's now more configurable.
It's now more usable on my 7'' eeepc!! Wink

Solid1986Snake - Nov 18, 2008 - 09:15 AM
Post subject:

No, there is no kde 4.2 repo...

but you can easily compile it! There is a manual on techbase.

severin - Nov 18, 2008 - 12:38 PM
Post subject:

I'm expecting SVN packages as soon as the beta is tagged (or will it be alpha?) November 25th: http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/ ... e_Schedule

severin - Nov 19, 2008 - 03:58 PM
Post subject:

While there's heated discussions going on on whether to include policykit-kde (in a nutshell: I assume it's gonna be included), the tagging of beta 1 has started: http://websvn.kde.org/tags/KDE/4.1.80/ After all I've read 4.2 will be a *big* step forward for KDE4

JackieBrown - Nov 20, 2008 - 02:59 AM
Post subject:

This is why the 6 moth release plan was a bad idea (at least this early in KDE 4s life.)

rama - Nov 20, 2008 - 10:29 PM
Post subject:

itus wrote:

Is there any repo with kde 4.2 from svn...?

Btw, I tried 4.2 svn and it's now more configurable.
It's now more usable on my 7'' eeepc!! Wink

So how did you install it after all?
Is there a source repository (deb-src) so as to use the apt-get -b source command?