sidux.com
General Support - Important! Only use apt-get for package management
shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 01:06 AM
Post subject: Important! Only use apt-get for package management
Please ONLY use apt-get for package management in sidux
Package managers like adept, aptitude, synaptic, smart and kpackage are not always able to account for the huge amount of changes which happen in Sid (depedency changes, name changes, maintainer script changes, ...). That's not the fault of the developers of those tools though, they write a excellent tools and fabulous for the debian stable branch, they are simply just not suitable for the very special needs of Debian Sid and thus sidux.
Use whatever you like to search for packages, but stick with apt-get for actually installing/removing/dist-upgrading.
Better still, use kio-apt for package searches - http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-5555.html
It is a search-gui for packages without any install or upgrade options.
Package managers like adept, aptitude, synaptic and kpackage are at the least, non-deterministic (for complex package selection), mix that with a quickly moving target like sid and even worse an external repository of questionable quality (we don't use or recommend those, but they're a reality on your user systems) and you will be courting disaster.
apt-get on the other hand strictly does what it is asked to do, if there is any breakage you can pinpoint and debug/ fix the cause, if apt-get wants to remove half of the system (due to library transitions) it's the admin's call (that means you) to have at least a serious look.
The other item to note is that all of these types of GUI package managers need to run in init 5, and/or, in X, and in doing a dist-upgrade in init 5 and/or X , (or even an 'upgrade' which is not recommended), you will end up damaging up your system beyond repair, maybe not today or tomorrow, in time you will.
NEVER do a dist-upgrade nor upgrade whilst in X
It is especially important that you do not try to upgrade major components such as KDE and XORG and their dependencies while they are still running as it is likely this would lead to breakages.
Unlike most distros, KDE and Xorg are updated quite frequently in Sid.
apt-get is the only package management tool supported and recommended in sidux
There is one exception to this rule - h2's smxi tool, which runs in runlevel 3 and itself uses apt-get.
This is probably the safest way to dist-upgrade in sidux as it warns of potential problems and will also deal with many of those problems by holding troublesome packages until it is safe to upgrade them.
Quote:
But I've used <insert package manager here> lots of times and I've never had any problems.
You may not have had any problems... YET, that doesn't mean you won't.
And can you be so sure you haven't had any problems?
Maybe you have noticed more and more niggling little problems over time?
Maybe you have noticed strange errors or warnings on boot up lately?
The thing is, issues caused by upgrading in X or by using other package managers may not be immediately apparent and by the time they are, it may be too late to save your system.
Quote:
But other distros don't seem to have a problem with using graphical package managers
The reason you will find Adept, Synaptic, Smart or any other similar application recommended in other distributions is simple: Unlike sidux,they are based on STATIC REPOSITORIES, where changes after the initial release are rare and usually also well tested.
Debian Sid is not like other distros. It does not have a release cycle, the upgrades are raw, and happen in real time. There is no protected pool to draw from, like all other major distros maintain. There is no sidux 6, or sidux edgy, etc, there is just a point of entry into the pure sid pool, with some protection provided by the sidux repos. Once you begin to upgrade safely and routinely, you do not need to reinstall.
Debian Sid is the development branch of Debian and is not designed to be used on production systems.
Where sidux is unique is that it's goal is to make Debian Sid stable and this goal can only be achieved if sidux is used in a way supported and recommended by the sidux team.
References:
h2's smxi:
http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-24.html
http://techpatterns.com/forums/about736.html
APT HOWTO:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-h ... ex.en.html
Useful apt-get commands:
Code:
Commands:
update - Retrieve new lists of packages
upgrade - Perform an upgrade
install - Install new packages (pkg is libc6 not libc6.deb)
remove - Remove packages
purge - Remove and purge packages
source - Download source archives
build-dep - Configure build-dependencies for source packages
dist-upgrade - Distribution upgrade, see apt-get(8)
dselect-upgrade - Follow dselect selections
clean - Erase downloaded archive files
autoclean - Erase old downloaded archive files
check - Verify that there are no broken dependencies
Options:
-h This help text.
-q Loggable output - no progress indicator
-qq No output except for errors
-d Download only - do NOT install or unpack archives
-s No-act. Perform ordering simulation
-y Assume Yes to all queries and do not prompt
-f Attempt to continue if the integrity check fails
-m Attempt to continue if archives are unlocatable
-u Show a list of upgraded packages as well
-b Build the source package after fetching it
-V Show verbose version numbers
-c=? Read this configuration file
-o=? Set an arbitrary configuration option, eg -o dir::cache=/tmp
shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:20 AM
Post subject:
This is meant to be a sticky to refer people to, in order to avoid having to go over why sidux doesn't recommend graphical package managers.
As the issue comes up time and time again this is intended to be a sticky to refer people to, in order to avoid having to go over why sidux doesn't recommend graphical package managers.
Whether or not people agree with it or not and whether they follow the advice or not is up to them.
This is just to point out why sidux doesn't support them and why.
damentz - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:32 AM
Post subject: RE: Important! Only use apt-get for package management
Quote:
Package managers like adept, aptitude, synaptic, smart and kpackage are not always able to account for the huge amount of changes which happen in Sid
So they are not front ends but actual separate package managers with their own unique package dependency algorithms? They can account for the upgrades, but upgrading applications it is currently using to upgrade (X, KDE, qt, gtk) is the dangerous part.
Quote:
Use whatever you like to search for packages, but stick with apt-get for actually installing/removing/dist-upgrading.
Thats almost the same as saying, "You can find applications you want to launch through the K-Menu, but you need to launch them through konsole or the run box (alt+f2)"
I think what you mean is, Use whatever you like to search for and remove or install new packages, but any installations requiring upgrades should be done in apt-get to remove points of failure. ALL upgrades that upgrade running applications such as X and KDE should be done in init 3 to remove all software points of failure and reduce the chance of ever reinstalling your operating system in the future.
Ok, I think this is what should be added to clear things up. Make instances of when applications like synaptic are fine.
Example: Synaptic would be fine in an instance where you are finding packages to install or remove.
1. I am running out of space so I use Synaptic to find the largest sized packages and determine which ones I won't need.
or
2. I need find and install a bunch of wireless logging packages and test them all out.
Sorry, even though this topic is very worn out, at some point you guys just seem to post down irrational thoughts that sound like various religious groups refusing to consider anything than what is hard coded into their "holy" bible. Feel free to flame me.
shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:43 AM
Post subject:
I prefer not to flame anyone and you are of course entitled to your opinion.
If YOU don't agree with what is written YOU don't have to follow it, neither does anyone else.
This is simply a collection of information as to why it isn't recommended by sidux. It isn't necessarily my own opinions but I do choose to follow any advice given by people who know far more about these things than I do.
I think it is important that new users are aware of these things and that they are not advised to ignore warnings.
Maybe ignoring the advice wouldn't cause problems but it's important people are aware that it could.
Also, launching an application is hardly the same thing as it doesn't have any affect on the rest of the system.
damentz - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:49 AM
Post subject:
Quote:
Also, launching an application is hardly the same thing as it doesn't have any affect on the rest of the system.
Right, because synaptic uses apt for all the grunt work, so whats wrong with synaptic installing single or sets of packages (not upgrading) when its using the same command you would have typed into a terminal?
craigevil - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:53 AM
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"dist-upgrade" is Ctrl+Alt+F1 ; logon as root, type init 3 ; apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade ; re-install 3d-drivers if xorg updated [sgfxi] +DO NOT DIST-UPGRADE [or UPGRADE] with adept or synaptic+ *always* check Current Warnings on http://sidux.com/module-News.html and http://sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewforum-f-29.html
This topic has been beaten like a dead horse.
View topic - APT vs. Aptitude, or why use APT
http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic ... itude.html
View topic - apt-get or aptitude
http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic ... itude.html
View topic - When to use Klik, Synaptic, Adept or Aptitude in sidux?
http://www.sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic ... itude.html
damentz - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:55 AM
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It was bound to be discussed to death, everyone seems to have conflicting ideas on how exactly your installation should be maintained.
shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 02:58 AM
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Well maybe this thread can be used for healthy debate rather than it coming up in different threads all the time?
kelmo - Aug 25, 2007 - 06:46 AM
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Shame, thanks for taking the time and effort to explain what you have above.
wegface - Aug 25, 2007 - 08:10 AM
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Yes thanks shame- good post- and thanks h2 for moderating. This thread shouldnt be the place to CONTINUE the already stupid argument from the previous thread. This is for noobs to read and understand- and choose to follow if they want to do things the sidux way. Its not for users who have heard all the arguments already to start trolling- we've had enough already! Peace.
shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 09:13 AM
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I sort of get the feeling I've made matters worse, unfortunately 
Oddball - Aug 25, 2007 - 11:45 AM
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Quote:
I sort of get the feeling I've made matters worse, unfortunately Confused
I think you did good shame. 
For me it's quite simple. sidux developers say, "use apt-get for all installations, uninstallations and d-u". Thats what they support. Thats what I read and follow. If somebody whants to do different it's up to them. For new users, read and learn, read shames text, read manual and then act after that or act as you want to and take the responsibility for that.
tr0nic - Aug 25, 2007 - 11:47 AM
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No, you didn't make it worse.
Actually, I find this thread to be highly interesting. It's just a well-written resumé of the ever so long discussion about these package managers.
I simply don't understand why people *still and agaiN* discuss it over and over and over. It has been said to use apt-get for installing/removing/upgrading, and synaptic & co for package search. So why is it so difficult to do so - okay, you're free to do whatever you want, but it's just plain better to follow the advice of the developers and long-time users - besides the fact that apt-get is just more comfortable when you get used to it and its command line options.
You can compare it to the "good/bad burn" discussion. Burn your disks DAO, low speed etc. pp., you know the rest. [getting nervous...]
So just follow the advice of people who *know* what they're talking about, especially if they know more than *you*.
Scrooge - Aug 25, 2007 - 01:22 PM
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Thank you, Shame. 
EvNu - Aug 25, 2007 - 05:03 PM
Post subject:
Thank you for this interesting and very useful Thread. I think it makes it easier to have all this information in one place to which one can refer. Maybe there should be a link to this thread in the Manual?
Greetings
JackieBrown - Aug 25, 2007 - 07:26 PM
Post subject:
Shame, I apologize to you for my harsh words.
I meant what I said, but I didn't mean it so offensively.
I have always thought of you as a good man and respect what you have brought the Debian community.
Good bye for now.
piper - Aug 25, 2007 - 11:09 PM
Post subject:
shame
EXCELLENT !!!
Very well written out, thank you
shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 11:30 PM
Post subject:
@ JackieBrown
It seems your post has been deleted. No worries, I didn't find anything you said offensive personally.
@ piper
Thanks, but it was mainly quotes from several sources, including the sidux manual (with one or two bits added by me) so it's those people that deserve the credit (unfortunately, I can't actually remember who said what now), I just stuck it all together
piper - Aug 26, 2007 - 12:12 AM
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shame wrote:
@ piper
Thanks, but it was mainly quotes from several sources, including the sidux manual (with one or two bits added by me) so it's those people that deserve the credit (unfortunately, I can't actually remember who said what now), I just stuck it all together
Yes, I know, but, you took the time to do what you did and did it well
wegface - Aug 27, 2007 - 08:17 AM
Post subject:
bump! Didnt this need to be made sticky then?
shame - Aug 27, 2007 - 10:34 PM
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Yeah slam! I thought this was meant to be a sticky? Maybe he forgot
kstevek - Aug 27, 2007 - 11:45 PM
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nice one shame, with a few "tweaks" here n there it would be suitable for the manual imho.
cheers kstevek
shame - Aug 28, 2007 - 12:25 AM
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Hey! It's a sticky now.
@ kstevek
Much of it is already taken from the manual but let me know what tweaks you think it needs.
UncleDeadley - Aug 28, 2007 - 12:59 AM
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Shame, I think you should specifically point out to people that breakage is very likely if they try to upgrade Xorg, KDE, or their dependencies while those things are still running. And maybe mention that these things get updated regularly in SID. Missing/changed names/dependencies create headaches, but it was trying to upgrade KDE and X86 while they were still running that borked my first system.
I get the feeling that other distributions don't deal with Xorg and KDE upgrades except when they release new version of their distro, so this whole business of worry about upgrading Xorg or KDE while it's running might be new to them.
shame - Aug 28, 2007 - 01:32 AM
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Ok, I've added a bit about KDE and Xorg now.
navigator - Aug 29, 2007 - 07:54 AM
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Please keep up the good work Shame, including your repository. I think your work helps to make things clearer to us non developers, old codgers and new users who may not be quit so quick on the uptake. I use smxi for updates but will use apt for installing programs from now on.
davewt2006 - Sep 04, 2007 - 08:44 PM
Post subject:
Just to pitch in on this but would there be anything wrong with someone coming up with a script that allows you to do a keyword search for packages (like with Synaptic) in INIT 3? It wouldn't be graphical, obviously, but it would save the effort of finding packages in Synaptic, writing them down, then opening console etc (yes, I'm lazy).
How about: apt-get search KEYWORD? or something like that? All it would have to do is bring up a numbered list of packages that you could then install safely. SMXI already has functions like that and it might help remove the temptation to upgrade in INIT 5. Maybe SMXI could have a function like that, I don't know.
In fact -and here is an idea- how about an application were you just click a button on your taskbar, it asks you for your root password and then sends you into INIT 3 and runs SMXI all in one go? The little Hermes gadget seems like the ideal candidate for the added function. Is that feasible?
Just a thought.
shame - Sep 04, 2007 - 10:50 PM
Post subject:
"apt-cache search keyword" does that.
The downside is it can bring back a lot of results (it seems to do something like the name and description search in synaptic) and it can look a bit messy and confusing.
I assume there is some way to filter these searches better with apt-cache search but I never looked into it.
I'm sure someone could come up with a script to send you into init 3 and auto run smxi. Though I think it will ask for a login once it gets to init 3 anyway.
The_Seeker - Sep 04, 2007 - 11:21 PM
Post subject:
shame wrote:
I assume there is some way to filter these searches better with apt-cache search but I never looked into it.
Adding ^ before the keyword filters results.
Code:
gavin@sidux:~$ apt-cache search amarok
amarok - versatile and easy to use audio player for KDE
amarok-engines - output engines for the Amarok audio player
amarok-xine - xine engine for the Amarok audio player
exaile - flexible audio player, similar to Amarok, but written in GTK+
kamefu - KDE All Machine Emulator Frontend for Unix - binary files
kamefu-data - Data files for Kamefu
kopete - instant messenger for KDE
libkamefu-dev - Development headers for Kamefu
libkamefu0 - Libraries for Kamefu
lineak-kdeplugins - LinEAK KDE plugins
minirok - a small music player written in Python and inspired by Amarok
moodbar - Analysis program for creating a colorful visual representation of an audio file
vorbisgain - add Replay Gain volume tags to Ogg Vorbis files
xmms-kde - MP3 player integrated into the KDE panel
gavin@sidux:~$ apt-cache search ^amarok
amarok - versatile and easy to use audio player for KDE
amarok-engines - output engines for the Amarok audio player
amarok-xine - xine engine for the Amarok audio player
davewt2006 - Sep 04, 2007 - 11:57 PM
Post subject:
Thanks for that both of you. That's very useful information. I'd never heard of apt-cache keyword before.
zulu9 - Sep 05, 2007 - 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Adding ^ before the keyword filters results.
Cool. This also works with kio-apt
houms - Nov 30, 2007 - 03:46 PM
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From my personal experience, using konqueror (kio-apt) is perfect for doing packet searches. No need for synaptic, adept, etc.... It does everything that I need it to. And I agree that you should heed the developers suggestions about how to install, remove and upgrade...
severin - Nov 30, 2007 - 04:11 PM
Post subject:
zulu9 wrote:
Quote:
Adding ^ before the keyword filters results.
Cool. This also works with kio-apt
It's a general regexp thingy. The caret ^ means the beginning of the line
jap - Mar 23, 2008 - 08:07 PM
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Hey shame, THX for this thread .... now I know the "why" of not using those other package managers 
good post !
VorianGrey - Mar 24, 2008 - 03:30 AM
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The_Seeker wrote:
shame wrote:
I assume there is some way to filter these searches better with apt-cache search but I never looked into it.
Adding ^ before the keyword filters results.
Now that's very helpful. Thanks for the info.
VorianGrey - Mar 29, 2008 - 09:52 PM
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The more I read, the more I wonder. I know this is probably a very dumb question, but if upgrading in X is a bad idea then wouldn't installing programs from X be a bad idea too, especially if you pulled down dependencies that affected KDE or Xorg? It seems to me the only safe method of installing programs is in init 3. Or am I misreading what so many posts have written? The manual just says us apt-get for installing programs and I'm assuming that means in X because it makes no mention of it not being.
h2 - Mar 29, 2008 - 11:27 PM
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definitely, you're 100% right, there's no finer way to destroy kde than installing a kde app that pulls in a whole new kde while you're in kde.
Anything is safe if you understand what you're doing, if your kde is up to date, then installing a new k app is usually safe.
The safe method is to see what is getting pulled in, and if you see hal/udev, kde, xorg, etc, stuff being pulled in, stop, and do it via init 3.
You have to use your judgement. Debian sid will never be a safe system for average users to run, period. You can learn to run it and run it safely, but it is not safe by default, it's a cutting edge system, and people can and do get cut. Learning how it works is the best way to protect yourself.
A perfect world would see a new debian stable every year, which is plenty fast enough for a release cycle, but that takes a lot of work, and it's not realistic to expect debian devs to have that much time free every year, unless we see some larger amounts of corporate support, eg from HP, re bug hunting pre stable releases. So 18 months or so is about as often as you can realistically expect to see a new stable. And that's pushing it for free desktop software, it gets too out of date towards the end of that cycle, forcing you to pick: stability or fresh software?
honorshark - Apr 28, 2008 - 06:20 AM
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I use Aptitude ever since I using sidux. It works like a charm. "aptitude update" then it displays how many new updates, then "aptitude full-upgrade". Everything works fine. Even updating from KDE. I updated KDE, Xorg, and so on from here.. I think its safe.
arno911 - Apr 28, 2008 - 09:37 AM
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honorshark wrote:
I use Aptitude ever since I using sidux. It works like a charm. "aptitude update" then it displays how many new updates, then "aptitude full-upgrade". Everything works fine. Even updating from KDE. I updated KDE, Xorg, and so on from here.. I think its safe.
Im hanging around in IRC alot, and so I could read many things like:
"I do it like with stable/testing (or even worse:) ubuntu, dont tell me it wont work,
it did all the time"
well, after "all the time" was over, i could make a list like the following:
BODYCOUNT 
app total death toll
adept 6 systems
synaptic 4 sytems
aptitude 1 system
please, guys, use apt-get (kio-apt uses it too) !!
honorshark - Apr 28, 2008 - 10:08 AM
Post subject:
Okay okay I will use it then, but the other forums/pages suggested APTITUDE every time, cause "its a lot more advanced than apt-get". But I won't question the makers of an OS even if its just a customized one.. "JUST"..hehe^^
hubi - Apr 28, 2008 - 11:51 AM
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honorshark wrote:
Okay okay I will use it then, but the other forums/pages suggested APTITUDE every time, cause "its a lot more advanced than apt-get". But I won't question the makers of an OS even if its just a customized one.. "JUST"..hehe^^
honorshark,
it's the autoremove function of aptitude which may cause mayhem with a rolling release. This is the reason why sidux is shipped with apt and disabled autoremove function.
You are free to search for a thread here starting something like "my kdm was removed, I cannot login to KDE, any ideas?"
And with posts like yours being called more or less an idiot, one is not very keen on helping even if one knows the answer.
hubi
honorshark - Apr 28, 2008 - 03:49 PM
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Okay okay I said I got it. I using now apt-get..and I will use it from now on.. By the way.. "jó látni rajtam kívül itt magyarokat.. )" (sry for the Hungarian sentence) .. I hope one day, aptitude will be usable^^
hubi - Apr 28, 2008 - 03:54 PM
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honorshark wrote:
"jó látni rajtam kívül itt magyarokat..
)"
Osztrák vagyok, de már 1989 óta dolgozom Magyarországon.
üdv.
hubi
honorshark - Apr 28, 2008 - 04:16 PM
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[Hun]Hmm értem. Én itt születtem, és hát hogy is fogalmazzak, elég fiatal vagyok ..főleg ha hozzád mérve tekintjük. Ha 89-ben jöttél át , akkor..hűh.. szóval ..jahm.. [/hun] (okay I'm really offtopic..sorry for talking in HUN, I stop iŧ^^)
DeepDayze - Apr 28, 2008 - 05:49 PM
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honorshark wrote:
[Hun]Hmm értem. Én itt születtem, és hát hogy is fogalmazzak, elég fiatal vagyok ..főleg ha hozzád mérve tekintjük. Ha 89-ben jöttél át , akkor..hűh.. szóval ..jahm..
[/hun] (okay I'm really offtopic..sorry for talking in HUN, I stop iŧ^^)
ahh, at first I was wondering what that was all about
honorshark - Apr 28, 2008 - 06:31 PM
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DeepDayze wrote:
ahh, at first I was wondering what that was all about
Uhm yes.. its just hard to find Hungarians wherever I go. Its even more harder if its a page like this. But I had just "half-luck" cause he is not Hungarian, just he can speak the language.. (By the way its a shame now, to be Hungarian). OKAY. I STOP IT. SORRY.. gome..sumimasen.. I won't continue to post offtopic things..geez..i just can't leave it unanswered^^
devil - Apr 28, 2008 - 06:44 PM
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you can contribute to sidux with writing HUN.
we just found a translator for the manual tu your language and you might want to join him.
if so, come to #sidux-edu or write mail to bluewater-at-sidux.com
greetz
devil
muchan - Apr 28, 2008 - 10:59 PM
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btw, it's
gomen.... (with n) .. sumimasen.
but it is not hun. of course.
visla
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