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Anything goes - Is the forum becoming less friendly?

shame - Aug 12, 2007 - 01:52 AM
Post subject: Is the forum becoming less friendly?

I don't know if it's my imagination or what.
Due to a chronic lack of free time these days I haven't been visiting the forum as much as I'd like lately.

As I've been catching up on the comings and goings I can't help but feel the forum has a slightly less friendly edge to it.

There seem to be more harsh words and rants aimed at other users than I remember before.

There was always plenty of ubuntu bashing (as there is on most forums) but it mostly seemed good natured than hostile but I hadn't noticed user bashing before.

Maybe I'm just imagining it or just never noticed the comments before. I dunno...

zulu9 - Aug 12, 2007 - 02:05 AM
Post subject: Is the forum becoming less friendly?

hmm. could you give some examples?

I did not notice it on a wide range. There are some threads with topics that will naturally lead
to some ranting / bashing but on the newbie-help threads most answers seem to be like they've always been:
Short and direct but not unfriendly.

shame - Aug 12, 2007 - 02:16 AM
Post subject:

I would rather not give specific examples as I don't really want to start pointing fingers or cause offense or upset to the people in question.

I dunno, maybe it's a language thing.

I also think if anyone needs examples then it surely means it is just in my imagination after all.

Maybe it's the hormones all over the place after the birth of the new baby making me more sensitive (ok, so I wasn't actually the one that physically gave birth but still).

Ho-hum, forget I said anything
<quickly tries to brush the whole thread under the carpet before anyone else walks in>

JackieBrown - Aug 12, 2007 - 02:31 AM
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I noticed as well.

zulu9 - Aug 12, 2007 - 03:27 AM
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hmm. maybe turn this into a poll. so we got some more meanings even from users who scare from posting what they feel here.

I still don't really see it but as we now already got 2 users I think there is enough reason to look depper into this.

rodneyck - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:03 AM
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I noticed. I too have been quite busy with a new job and only glance through the forum when I can. It does not surprise me that the forums are changing in tone what with popularity of sidux. The users have definetly climbed in numbers as of late. "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

or...

"People are people so why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully"

*boom, boom, boom*

JackieBrown - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:03 AM
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Well to add, I've noticed but I don't really care. And the fan base is so strong here, I doubt many others would post in agreement even if they had noticed it.

Cathbard - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:26 AM
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Of course it isn't dickhead. Pull your head in or I'll jump out of your screen and rip your bloody arms off.

Wink

he he

DeepDayze - Aug 12, 2007 - 05:05 AM
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Now now, cathbard!

Very Happy

poppers1957 - Aug 12, 2007 - 05:47 AM
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Hi everyone. I am brand new here kinda. I have had sidux on my box for about a month now, and really like it. I enjoy learning new things. I don't post much here because I usually manage to find answers to any of my questions searching the forum. But I do not notice anything abnormal in the way of being less friendly. But I could just not see it because it isn't in the threads I look at. Doesn't mean it isn't there, but I haven't seen it.

BUT... I do have a question, when someone is being unfriendly or bashing, should the person be checked on it or not? Is this a topic for a poll? If you check a person on it, sometimes that's what they want, attention. But if you let it go unchecked, it could get out of hand.

All of the forums I go to have been extremely helpful.
One of the best things about Linux is all the help I get from people in the forums, and so quickly. It is free service from people willing to give their time here. And I deeply appreciate that. It is a very refreshing twist on how our world is, usually.

One last thing. I am from Michigan. It has always kinda amazed me how big a revelry there is between The University Of Michigan, and Michigan State. And just because someone goes there, or knows someone that does, or just like that particular school, it seems that it automatically makes the one better than the other. Both of these colleges are good, they are different in what they do, but both quality institutions. A mature adult would see this. What is the point you may ask? We can all be a little more mature, and not let the trivial matters have any power at all. Everyone has the right to follow the dictates of their own conscience, but that very right imposes upon them, the responsibility to respect that right in others.

h2 - Aug 12, 2007 - 08:25 AM
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I think people get tired now and then and might snap etc, but overall the tone is fairly decent, bar the occasional rant etc...

But I think it's not bad. I know I'm being 'less friendly' and trying to answer the questions in less time, I guess anyway, unless... there's a rant to be ranted.

But long term, it's really the newer users who will end up defining the overall tone of the forums, as they begin to post etc and help, so I suspect these things move in cycles.

Believe me, I used to participate in a very large forum, where a totally fake niceness was enforced, and that's one of the things I really liked about kanotix/sidux forum, you could be a bit more honest. So I'd say you may be noticing something that's always been somewhat present, but maybe it's a bit more present at the moment, all quite subjective.

titan - Aug 12, 2007 - 08:28 AM
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I don't think it is your imagination, I have noticed it also. It seems to me a lot of the forum regulars are posting less.

slam - Aug 12, 2007 - 08:41 AM
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Although I did not have much time recently to spend in our forums, I did recognize some more "short lines" answers - even from well known and reputated sidux people. I guess there are 2 reasons:

1) If you see the same question asked again & again here, while it is properly answered in our manuals and in several forum threads, you might get bored and tired of answering it again. I myself just keep distance from such repeated questions, but others might still feel they need to help and give those "short" answers which may sound unfriendly. Our user base is growing very fast, more and more questions need to be answered - so our best strategy here would be to find more helpfull hands answering and moderating.

2) While sidux is growing we have attracted more and more people who are not used to the common style of communication in a Linux forum. They need someone to take their hand and show them how things work when they ask their first question. We need kinda mentors for those people, who show them where and how to search first, how to give enough information when finally asking, how to ....

Regarding the missing $buntu bashing, well - that's my fault. I confess I had to use it a lot recently because 2 clients insisted on it. I still hate it, I still find it overrated and underdeveloped, but I simply had no time to start my rants here again. Wink

Greetings,
Chris

diddy1234 - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:13 AM
Post subject:

I agree with H2.

The overall tone has changed slightly but I think new users will define the overall atmosphere.

However I still think the sidux forum is one of the most helpfull forums for any linux distro and answers (good or bad) happen very quickly.
Thats what users want and everyone in the sidux "Crew" helps with.

kelmo - Aug 12, 2007 - 12:35 PM
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Yes, its been unfriendly at times recently. I've played a larger part in shaping the recent atmosphere then ever before as i haven't reguarly used the forums at all until the last few weeks.

Will take a break for a bit, see if things get friendlier Wink

clubex - Aug 12, 2007 - 12:42 PM
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I suppose the majority of new users will have been previously using
M$ OS. In my experience M$ forums tend to be aggressive and vehement
so it's to be expected that new sidux users will, initially, carry on
in the same manner. Hopefully this tendency will, in time, diminish.

Incidently Mac OS forums tend to be much more mild in character with
a trace of fatalism no doubt inspired by the fact that most problems
are mulled over and mulled over until the the problem peters out
without a solution.

Richard - Aug 12, 2007 - 03:39 PM
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I think it is only the natural progression of multilingual forums.
Not everyone either reads or writes exactly what they meant,
due to grammatical idiosyncrasies.

As h2 said, familiarity and repeated questions lead to shorter,
less wordy answers which may be difficult to decipher if English
is not the first language.

@kelmo, your answers are good and helpful, and to the point.
Nothing wrong with that.

What to do?
Maybe we need a quick reference FAQ index to the Manual?
sidux doesn't have a FAQ.
Many of the questions are answered in the manual.
A FAQ index might help people find answers to their questions.

Oddball - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:24 PM
Post subject:

I also have noticed a minor change but mostly in the way that I get less answers on my questions, short answers are not unfriendly for me, I remember Kanos answer in Kanotix, there where not one letter to much but they helped me a lot, much better a short and comprimed answer than no answer at all.

Quote:

1) If you see the same question asked again & again here, while it is properly answered in our manuals and in several forum threads, you might get bored and tired of answering it again. I myself just keep distance from such repeated questions, but others might still feel they need to help and give those "short" answers which may sound unfriendly. Our user base is growing very fast, more and more questions need to be answered - so our best strategy here would be to find more helpfull hands answering and moderating.

I find myself sometimes making questions which are made before because I'm not that very good in the English terms in the computer world and therefore I don't always know what to search for in search-function or I have to make the search to vague and then I get 200 hits.

I still have some issues which are not really solved because I have not got a satisfying answer ( can be that there is no answer) but I feel a little afraid to take them up again, I feel maybe that I disturb to much with mu questions.

Overall this is still the best forum I have joined so It's really good Smile

slam - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:26 PM
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We used to maintain a multilingual FAQ @kanotix - actually that was the place where the initial group of people met which later on was the base for the great sidux documentation & translation team sidux has today. We finally decided that the manual as it is now is a much better place for all those frequent questions, as good answers tend to be exhaustive, technicially changing and need good formatting with code examples. Those are the reasons why we concentrate now on the manual, and have abandoned the old FAQ format.

There are also some friendly pages in the Wiki, intended to be read by people when they visit us first: this one for example, linked from the site's main starting page: http://sidux.com/index.php?module=pnWikka&tag=warmwikiwelcome. However, I agree that there is always place for improvement.

But the main problem mostly is that people do not read welcome pages or manuals, and they don't search the forums before asking. Wink

@Oddball: Please don't be afraid to push your open questions - this forum was made to answer them. Smile

Greetings,
Chris

hubi - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:41 PM
Post subject:

Oddball wrote:

I still have some issues which are not really solved because I have not got a satisfying answer ( can be that there is no answer) but I feel a little afraid to take them up again, I feel maybe that I disturb to much with mu questions.

Don't stop asking them, sometimes they give me the kick to try to solve a problem which I have myself as well but could not be bothered to have a go at Wink

hubi

craigevil - Aug 12, 2007 - 04:54 PM
Post subject:

Most Debian forums tends to be very friendly. This one and the one over at debian.net are two of the friendliest forums I have ever seen.

Slam is correct, most people don't bother to read, FAQ, manual, wiki or even to search the forum for answers. Hell take a look at the Mozillazine forum for firefox you will see the same questions asked a million times even when there is a sticky.

The sidux manual is great, there are a few things in the wiki that seem to only be in Geman, but other than that it rocks.

The easiest and probably the fastest way to get asnwers is irc, there are many helpful people that hang out there.

rodneyck - Aug 12, 2007 - 07:06 PM
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Craigevil, stop being so negative!

wegface - Aug 12, 2007 - 08:51 PM
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The sidux forums are a passionate place, full of passionate people, who sometimes get themselves into a bit of a flutter. Thats fine, and one of the reasons we like it here so much. One thing that is silly is people who write useless crap just to add another number to their post count- luckily theres only a few like that here. But the sidux community is one of the reasons i use sidux (forgetting the fact it works so damn well, and easily) so lets keep it how it always has been- friendly, supportive and honest.
Peace.

JackieBrown - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:00 PM
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wegface wrote:

One thing that is silly is people who write useless crap just to add another number to their post count

post +1

wh7qq - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:09 PM
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Some of the problem lies in the search process. You have to search on exactly the right term to find gems that may be lurking in the forums. As there tend to be lots of popular names for hardware and other subjects, being a little bit off gets you either buried in chaff or nothing at all. Looking for USB key may get results when USB memory does not or maybe it
s USB stick, and so on. AND and NOT may or may not help. This is not in any way unique to this forum. There is a tremendous amount of material in this forum which has only been in existence for 9 months or so. The Debian forum is homongous! The result is search frustration followed by a possibly repetitive question.

The manual is great but not always on target, and in some cases, what it teaches doesn't seem to work. Maybe it does and I'm growing a reading disability or something worse. The section on networking could use some work...so far, it just hasn't done it for me.

This is still one of the best forums out there but even it can test the fortitude of those of us who are less skilled and schooled in linux.

To the developers and gurus, thanks for everything and please continue to be patient with us. To the newbies, persevere because the results are worth it.

Paul

h2 - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:35 PM
Post subject:

One of the best ways I've found to learn something new, like say how to run Linux, how to do complicated programming etc, is to start answering questions on forums. You'll find that as you research and read, your own level will start to jump up steadily.

I agree with posters here who point out that until you know what question to ask, searching for the answer is not particularly easy or obvious, and failure to find an answer in the manual or the forums should not be automatically be taken to mean that the person did not try to find that answer.

I actually am finding that on average, posters here are, in general, clearly TRYING to find the answer before posting, and I think that's the best you can hope for. sidux forums seem to get users who are trying in this way far more frequently than other forums I've frequented, and I think, on the whole, that tendency has, if anything, improved. sidux, to me, continues to attract an, on average, above average group of users.

As noted, my first question on kanotix.com forums was answered by kano, in one sentence I think. I've actually set that as a goal too, but, if you've read some of my postings, you'll of course be aware that I in general totally fail to achieve this goal. But I like short accurate answers where they can be reasonably complete and don't assume too much other knowledge that hte poster probably should not be exected to have.

But the fact remains, what was an interesting question to answer the first few times stops being an interesting question after that, unless there is an interesting new twist to it.

severin - Aug 12, 2007 - 10:02 PM
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h2 wrote:

As noted, my first question on kanotix.com forums was answered by kano, in one sentence I think. I've actually set that as a goal too, but, if you've read some of my postings, you'll of course be aware that I in general totally fail to achieve this goal. But I like short accurate answers where they can be reasonably complete and don't assume too much other knowledge that hte poster probably should not be exected to have.

I wouldn't want to set brevity as a goal. Often it's pretty convenient for the one answering the question (especially if it's a recurring one), but the learning curve you spoke about can definitely be eased by actually explaining a little of the background. This enables the original poster to maybe solve the next problem himself.

I myself often don't take the time to do so, though Wink

shame - Aug 12, 2007 - 10:28 PM
Post subject:

Well, seems it isn't just my imagination after all Very Happy

I would like to quickly point out that I wasn't inferring the forums are UNfriendly by any means, just that they seem slightly LESS friendly though still much more friendly than most).

I think the reasons for this have been answered though and as has been said, this will change over time anyway as the user base grows and changes.

I just hate the thought that the forum could ever fall foul of the dreadful "aquasoft syndrome" where new users post once and never dare ask another question again for fear of further attacks. Or users trawl through page after page of search results and the only answer they can ever find is "search the forum".

Though I doubt sidux would ever get even close to that state really

Maybe it isn't so much less friendly, as less good humoured, though as rodneyck is busy with his new job that might explain it Very Happy

JackieBrown - Aug 12, 2007 - 11:43 PM
Post subject:

h2 wrote:

As noted, my first question on kanotix.com forums was answered by kano, in one sentence I think..

Same here, but my question was incredibly stupid (I had a bad burn)

SaberBlaze - Aug 13, 2007 - 05:44 AM
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I check these forums either everyday or every other day, but don't post much. I guess I just don't have anything really useful add. However, I do agree this forum is far friendlier than others. Maybe one suggestion to get viewers to read the manual is to put some kind of disclaimer or message when they register that says something like "HI, WELCOME TO sidux! BEFORE POSTING IN THE FORUMS WE RECOMMEND YOU READ OUR FINE sidux MANUAL. HAVE A FANTASTIC DAY!!!" I have seen other forums have something similar to try and get new user to read the rules or guidelines etc. of that particular forum. It's no big deal though, I have nothing to complain about.

Hmm, for some reason sidux won't stay capitalized.

op4latino - Aug 13, 2007 - 06:32 AM
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SaberBlaze, there's one already http://sidux.com/index.php?module=pnWik ... ikiwelcome

If you put sidux.com in your browser, you'll see "You're new to sidux? No problem – continue >here. " that links to the one above, however people can't see it.

Maybe some sort of eye attraction will help.

P.D. About sidux not stayed capitalized is because that work is tm. it has to be spell like that

SaberBlaze - Aug 13, 2007 - 07:14 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Yeah, my eyes just sort of automatically skim over that part, good thing I usually do some reading (in this case the sidux manual) before installing anything. The manual is a very nice addition to sidux.

Quote:

P.D. About sidux not stayed capitalized is because that work is tm. it has to be spell like that

I did not know that, thanks.

devil - Aug 13, 2007 - 07:52 AM
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sidux is always lower case - typical case of understatement Wink

greetz
devil

shame - Aug 13, 2007 - 09:08 AM
Post subject:

I must admit I never tend to notice things like manuals and wikis until I run into a problem I can't work out or if I can't find the answer in the forum.

Usually only after someone has pointed out the manual.

I suppose it's just easier to ask a question than it is to look for the answer.

I think if you were forced to read the entire manual when registering, many people would still just skim through it to speed up registering then go and ask a question that had been answered in the manual they had just (not) read.

I would have probably done exactly that a while back (I'm sorry to say).

I'm not sure what the answer to that is but maybe something for us to think about and come up with ideas, not only to save the experienced people answering the same questions over and over but also so all the hard work of creating the manual doesn't go to waste.

clivesay - Aug 13, 2007 - 02:09 PM
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Maybe redesign the site so when you come to sidux.com the first page is the sidux manual. You must read the manual and answer a list of questions correctly before you are allowed to enter the site! Wink

Chris

bluewater - Aug 13, 2007 - 03:13 PM
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The manual, the forum and wiki are only wastelands for those whom refuse to use their intelligence, and even then , it will not be,. For those whom want to be spoon fed, have other priorities and objectives, most likely, have a half life of a week, or less, so be it, as other alternatives are available to them.

Any forum post, starts to build a wealth of knowledge and those same posters over time, should add it to the wiki, that means a thread turns into documentation on the forum and wiki .

This knowledge is then added to the sidux-manuals. The sidux operating manual, which has the intent of codifying the core of the distro, gains additional knowledge far and beyond its core.

For the last decade, most distros could not give a brass razzoo about distro documentation. they let the forum and wiki be the default documentation. bit daft really, as it meant they could not give a rats arse!

There are a few exceptions to this:
should I name them?
uuuummmmm
nah

grins

damentz - Aug 13, 2007 - 03:32 PM
Post subject:

The first thing I remember Kano telling me was, "Why do you complain so much?"

People tend to forget that everyone is human no matter how knowledgeable or highly regarded they are in the community.

..and bluewater, when can you get that dpkg --get-selections / --set-selections backup package list thinger in the manual? Smile

bluewater - Aug 13, 2007 - 03:38 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

..and bluewater, when can you get that dpkg --get-selections / --set-selections backup package list thinger in the manual? Smile

as soon as you write it up

hehehe
seriously..
Its on the todo list,, please submit a draft,

jml - Aug 13, 2007 - 10:02 PM
Post subject:

Its been a long time since I posted, but I had to put my two cents worth in. As far as friendliness goes, this forum is very good. Knowledgeable people willing to help. I am also impressed that the developers actually participate. I have been on several other distro's forums where that does not happen. So good marks on that note.

As for the short answers, I must confess that it is very hard to remain enthusiastic when one is asked the same question over and over again. However, I think that this forum does a good job of handling it. I do have a few ideas that the forum members and the sysadmins may want to consider.

First. on the sidux.com home page, how about placing the "new to sidux" link in a larger font size to draw attention to it. I would also add a "suggestion" there to search the wiki and the manual for answers before posting a question on the forum.

Second, How about a sticky at the top of the list of forum topics dedicated to new users again suggesting that the wiki and the manual and forum threads, be the first place they look for answers to the questions.

Third, and this may seem a bit unfriendly but I have seen forums that tend to limit access to new users by a.) not allowing "guest" accounts. b.) limiting access to some threads, (in this case for suggestions ,) until a certain number of posts have been made. c.) A final idea to encourage searching the forum threads before asking a question would be by tracking the number of times a new user has logged onto the forum and not allowing the person to post a question until they have logged on, (and presumably searched the threads,) a specified number of times. This last one may be too drakonian, though.

Just my opinion, and again, congratulation on a great distro and forum.

Joe

kstevek - Aug 14, 2007 - 12:23 AM
Post subject:

maybe an obvious specific sidux manual search facility on the front page, so answers come from the manual first, maybe the default for general search?
it is true that you need to "learn" to search in technical type forums like this one,

cheers kstevek

zulu9 - Aug 14, 2007 - 12:39 AM
Post subject:

maybe the new meta manual (still under contruction in large parts) can also help. not only those who use the meta-installer but simply because of the fact it contains (or will contain) descriptions, hints etc for various apps that sidux users use. it will also make it easier to answer "what application can I use for task X" type questions.

shame - Aug 14, 2007 - 02:38 AM
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Incidentally, I like it when people as the same questions over and over again.

It means after also reading the answer over and over again I can jump in and answer them myself, making me look really knowledgable. Very Happy

severin - Aug 14, 2007 - 07:34 AM
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@jml: I dunno. The guys at the LabView forum got this policy where clicking the "new topic" button brings you to the search form before allowing you to ask your question. I find this rather annoying, and if sidux were to adopt this policy it would seriously keep me from posting as often as I do now.

titan - Aug 14, 2007 - 07:36 AM
Post subject:

The original post was about the perception that the forum was maybe a little less friendly, and I think that has been answered but now because some members are apparently tired of answering the same questions we have suggestions of how to deter posters from posting , yes that is real friendly.
I read every post and don't recall that many identical questions, in fact I would say there are less similar questions. So I say to newcomers post what you like am I am sure you will get an answer, if it has been posted that often even I might know the answer Smile

The forum is the face of the sidux community, it reflects the spirit of sidux harsh words and locked threads detract from what is normally a very friendly forum for the best distro going.

Ian

DeepDayze - Aug 14, 2007 - 12:18 PM
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perhaps the common "stupid questions" should be answered in the FAQ and new users should be encouraged to read the FAQ and the fine sidux manual Smile

wegface - Aug 14, 2007 - 01:17 PM
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The common "stupid" questions will be asked again and again, as long as new users are attracted to this distro. Its all of our job here to remain patient, friendly and supportive of these users- even when its "boring". Most of us- if not all- were one of those users once, and the fact our questions were answered in this way- is what kept us here.

RazberrieTart - Aug 14, 2007 - 07:49 PM
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I guess I didn't see the site overall becoming less friendly, guess I don't hang out in thef right places, and if it did, for example a thread that was just disintegrating into flamewars, it was locked and the ruckus died down.

At least here you can wander offtopic, I go on one forum where if you go offtopic from the original post, you get warned/deleted :/ Another has a specific forum char limit at 400 chars, which in some cases is nowhere near enough to explain an answer or make a valid counterpoint to an argument

Even for idiot questions, at least sidux doesn't make one feel stupid for asking them, and how well I know that Very Happy

turbowsr - Aug 14, 2007 - 09:40 PM
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After years of reading post's in various forums I can say no matter how much available information is easily accessible, people will ask a question already answered (even if it was answered in a topic preceding the new question. Why? convenience. We as a race are just lazy. That is why we don't all walk down to the local meet'n place and chat, but use the PC. Washing machine, TV, automobiles, and other great inventions, all because someone was lazy, and wanted an easier way. LOL, ROTFL, RTFM, etc, because we are too lazy to type.

I say this from experience Smile

I too ask newbie questions, and use products because I am lazy Smile

I don't see the forums getting less friendly tho. From past experience, cultural differences cause many to misunderstand the answers and comments they receive. Also without visuals, it is hard to interpret print.

Well, my little hoodlums are bugging me, and it is about to get less friendly here at home Smile

shame - Aug 14, 2007 - 09:45 PM
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Or for those who know the manual and wiki well (I don't yet but I do need to get round to doing some reading up) could simply link to the page in question?

turbowsr - Aug 14, 2007 - 11:23 PM
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upper left hand corner, under menu Smile

shame - Aug 14, 2007 - 11:28 PM
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Of course I meant a link to the answer to the problem in the wiki/manual page Smile

turbowsr - Aug 15, 2007 - 12:48 AM
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Quote:

Of course I meant a link to the answer to the problem in the wiki/manual page

doh!

Well really the "questions" are an evolution. During this time period the actual people involved in the sidux project answer the questions. In the future, they will be so busy making enhancements and upgrades that they won't have time Shocked

Then in this future time it will be up to the current newb's to step up and answer the future newb's questions, thus allowing the maintainers to maintain Smile

I have not seen too many repeated questions, as sidux is still grown and adding, so the questions are toward the next or current releases. If you want to see "stupid newbie questions" just head over to Ubuntu forums. One can see the same question 100's of times or more. Laughing

wvanr - Aug 16, 2007 - 01:12 AM
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Quote:

I have not seen too many repeated questions [...]

I quoted you out of context, turbowsr, but as someone who has read every post in
English from the start of both kanotix and sidux...

--Different questions, but the same issues behind them: bad CD burn (non DAO), didn't install
driver firmware, don't know about apt system, wont listen about using apt-get instead
of synaptic or aptitude, unfamiliar with or afraid of command line, want to use
unsupported software, complaining about lack of nonfree sw--just a few that come
to mind.

--Lately there have been a number of problem posts due to the user not
knowing about or looking in the KDE control center or other place in the GUI
for configuration options, not being able to run something that was not
installed, and so on.

Not repeated questions, no, but people do get tired of drilling down to the
same root causes.

jbs1136 - Aug 16, 2007 - 07:03 AM
Post subject:

I visit a lot but don't post unless I have a problem, which thankfully isn't that often. Sometimes you get short answers, no big deal. I think sometimes it might be because the person that answers isn't that familiar with English. Who cares, they gave me the answer and I am up and running and happy. I think this is a great distro and the forum is helpful. I have seen a few post that I thought were a little rough but if you watch, they normally come back and apologize for their words. Thanks to this distro and this forum I have gone from windows to a working OS, not bad for a senior citizen (64) that is trying to learn. I use sidux 90% of the time. I still play a few games in windows but am learning to get them using wine. I refuse to put windows on this machine! It is on another, older one. As for the manual, and I don't want to step on anyones toes, but I find too many things that either are wrong or don't work or have the wrong instructions. It makes it difficult to use when the instructions don't work. Therefore, I tend to shy away from it. I started a thread once about something wrong with the manual back on the kanotix forum and it was ignored. I have been hesitant to do that here. I find the forum is much more useful and correct.

john

devil - Aug 16, 2007 - 07:21 AM
Post subject:

jbs1136,
please, if you think you found a mistake in the manual, let us know.
thats the only way to fix it.
i am sure there is mistakes or old info (after 9 months:) in there and i always want to go thru the whole thing and find some, but never find the time.
there is a thread her for manual errors: http://sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2139.html
thxx

greetz
devil

titan - Aug 16, 2007 - 08:41 AM
Post subject:

wvanr wrote:

Quote:

I have not seen too many repeated questions [...]

I think it was me who said what you have quoted, but your examples illustrate the problem. I don,t think you will find conclusive answers to your examples in the manual, wiki or previous posts unless you know exactly what to look for. Anyone who is familiar with Debian will now have conflicting advice about using synaptic or aptitude, bad burns could also be down to specific hardware, driver firmware changes daily, the install script for Nvidia has changed at least three time. sidux is a moving target a post for a fix two months ago may be no longer valid. The forum is current and the best way to keep up to date with the latest sidux changes, any written documentation will nearly always lag behind any changes. Reading threads with similar themes can also still give out new information. Not everyone's sidux installation is the same, looking at the DU warnings every day sometimes it affect some but not others. so similar sounding problems may not have the same cause. For the posts that we have all seen before that just part of any forum and is it really that bad.

jbs1136 - Aug 16, 2007 - 08:36 PM
Post subject:

devil,

Thanks, I will try to find the error I spoke of and post it. It was something I was trying to do and didn't know how so I went to the manual. Worse luck, what I found wouldn't work. I did get the problem solved though, thanks to the forum.

john

Crust - Aug 16, 2007 - 09:56 PM
Post subject:

<joke>

If you find this forum unfriendly, get the hell out.

</joke>

Overall, I think with the forum + irc; I've never seen a group of more helpful people.

shame - Aug 16, 2007 - 10:23 PM
Post subject:

titan wrote:

I don,t think you will find conclusive answers to your examples in the manual, wiki or previous posts unless you know exactly what to look for. Anyone who is familiar with Debian will now have conflicting advice about using synaptic or aptitude, bad burns could also be down to specific hardware, driver firmware changes daily, the install script for Nvidia has changed at least three time. sidux is a moving target a post for a fix two months ago may be no longer valid. The forum is current and the best way to keep up to date with the latest sidux changes, any written documentation will nearly always lag behind any changes. Reading threads with similar themes can also still give out new information. Not everyone's sidux installation is the same, looking at the DU warnings every day sometimes it affect some but not others. so similar sounding problems may not have the same cause. For the posts that we have all seen before that just part of any forum and is it really that bad.

I think that's a very good point indeed.

wvanr - Aug 17, 2007 - 01:19 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

I have not seen too many repeated questions [...]

I think it was me who said what you have quoted, but your examples illustrate the problem. I don,t think you will find conclusive answers to your examples in the manual, wiki or previous posts unless you know exactly what to look for. Anyone who is familiar with Debian will now have conflicting advice about using synaptic or aptitude, bad burns could also be down to specific hardware, driver firmware changes daily, the install script for Nvidia has changed at least three time. sidux is a moving target...

You may have said it as well, but it was quoted from the last paragraph of turbowsr's post immediately
preceding mine.

Your other points are no doubt true. However, there is a difference between lore and
understanding, a subject on which h2 has written quite eloquently. A true newcomer
has neither, someone more experienced possibly has both. One can
accumulate lore. There's nothing wrong with that. But striving for understanding,
looking for the deeper issues, abstracting, compiling, and comparing are
how the lore is generated in the first place. That, and trial and error Wink

ElZorro - Aug 25, 2007 - 06:36 AM
Post subject: One must realize---

---That most of the developers come from Deutschland, where laws can be harsh and threatening, especially pertaining to potential copyright infringements.
Thus the values of the commendable FSF, are enforced rigidly, and thus certain multimedia comments can be erased from the forum pronto. Further, some non open source free programmes eg Skype, can be viewed with suspicion also.

I appreciate all the sidux teams hard work, with regular releases, the amazing taming of Sid (Debian unstable), indeed, bringing out the best in Debian.

We users should be tolerant and respect their difficulties, and rather frantic workload, and try to read and improve the manuals which which they have worked hard on, otherwise they may indeed be brusque.
We must also get our feet wet, and sometimes look for certain regional problems on other forums
Best
El Zorro

kelmo wrote:

Cathbard - Aug 25, 2007 - 06:55 AM
Post subject:

severin wrote:

I missed this comment. I got quite a chuckle out of it. I remember getting short answers to questions from you severin, when I first started and they actually made me discover lots so I could understand what the hell you were talking about. I'm not complaining btw, I actually thought it was great that your answers led me to discover lots of new things but still: this made me chuckle. Laughing

slackrat - Mar 26, 2008 - 03:00 PM
Post subject:

Talk about digging up an old thread......I've noticed it a bit, and to be honest, I've seen many hardcore debian devs here take the time with a newcomer, when my own less knowledgeable self was itching to type RTFM.

I've also done a few reckless things with my sidux box, without reading the man pages and posts...........and gotten a brusque reply. But I think it would be a major mistake to become so hand holding user friendly that the forum is clogged with ubuntu level questions on every thread. This is sidux, based on Debian sid, not ubuntix.....and one reason I can't use ubuntu? the stigma of too many people with WRONG answers clogging the forums and IRC.

In short, this forum is a real linux forum with all the positives and negatives one will find on any serious linux users site. Lately, the buntu mission to get everyone running unix from pretty guis has been glutting the search engines (even when you google sidux or debian, the answer is an ubuntu forum - the ubuntu system is too forked to advise accurately when running debian..........If I see one more debian question answered with 'sudo -----xyz" , I"m gonna puke.

So, I don't see any problem here......but dont be surprised if you want your hand held and haven't tried at all to search for your answer. If you just say, hey guys, fix this for me now!" there are OSs where you can pay to be lectured and castigated and told to reinstall .............linux has always been a DIY concept and the knowledge gained, sometimes at the hands of a harsh taskmaster is still invaluable if you intend to really learn how to use your computer.

Good point, good comments, great distro..................next flame war please, heh.

cheers

absolut - Mar 26, 2008 - 04:07 PM
Post subject:

slackrat wrote:

yeah!!! absolutely right!
i sometimes feel really the same way, even i am only a `dumb´ average user.

slackrat wrote:

This is sidux, based on Debian sid, not ubuntix.....[snip]If I see one more debian question answered with 'sudo -----xyz" , I"m gonna puke.

same here!

what especially pisses me of: there are these users that _obviously_ do not know anything about linux/debian/sidux and just do not intend to read the great manual!

chosy - Mar 26, 2008 - 04:20 PM
Post subject:

slackrat wrote:

If I see one more debian question answered with 'sudo -----xyz" , I"m gonna puke.

What's a debian question? And what's your problem with sudo?

I mean, i never used ubuntu before, and i will not, but i don't see the point, why sudo shouldn't be used..maybe you can bring up some points? Smile

absolut - Mar 26, 2008 - 05:07 PM
Post subject:

chosy wrote:

[snip] i don't see the point, why sudo shouldn't be used..maybe you can bring up some points? Smile

http://sidux.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB ... amp;t=2663

BlueShadow - Mar 26, 2008 - 05:42 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

I mean, i never used ubuntu before, and i will not, but i don't see the point, why sudo shouldn't be used..maybe you can bring up some points?

There is nothing wrong with sudo, but with the ubuntu default sudoers that enables root permissions for ALL programs.

slackrat - Mar 26, 2008 - 09:33 PM
Post subject:

As for "Whats a debian question, that should be self explanatory. Debian has a social contract, it has its files follow the File System Hierarchy, it has definitions of free, non free, contrib and it has the apt and related pkg management tools and is designed to leave you free to install where and how you want. A very hands on roll your own distro. Debian does not do what the admin does not tell it to do.

Buntus , Suses and Mandrivas among others make many default choices for users and for some they like that. I want to configure my system the way I want, so I run slack, debian and sidux. If you ask how to install a pkg from a Suse user, you will get a YAST answer.....Fedora users will tell you about YUM or rpm to install, ubuntu has taken a bedrock of debian and simplified it and tried to hide some (many) part of what was once a Debian based distro into their own distro.

Open software allows this, that is not the problem. But if I aks about say : Adding repos, or how to change permissions, or how to reconfigure X....and google those words with DEBIAN.........I should not get more hits about ubuntu than debian. Sudo aside, I didn't google how to configure a buntu system.....

They lean on the debian legacy and then forget debian existed, until theres a problem..........then the users flood debian forums to the point where the Debian IRC topic includes THIS IS NOT UBUNTU.

In brief, a debian question is about running debian. A sidux question is about running sidux, and so on..............I would think that would be clear enough to most linux users...........and the sudo question is answered above,but even "non distro specific linux sites have clearly been using ubuntu and teaching others how to fix things with sudo...........because its all they know. A linux user knows su, and sudo, among other options.

Debian doesn't crowd Ubuntu sites, so Ubuntu - if it had any decency should stop pretending to be improved debian.

sidux says they are debian enhanced.........and debian users either agree, or say, bleh, who needs the 'enhancements' ..........they are arguments for both sides without it being antagonistic, or polluting the forums.

<rant complete>

damentz - Mar 27, 2008 - 12:31 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Debian doesn't crowd Ubuntu sites, so Ubuntu - if it had any decency should stop pretending to be improved debian.

Just to play devils advocate, they are doing some cool things with Hardy Heron, but the only nick I have against them are the lack of good automation scripts (sgfxi and what not), an updated kernel, old non-updated video drivers (terrible for gamers), and the frozen repositories. Otherwise it seems to fill the desktop spot pretty tightly.

Note that most people really don't care for those points I mentioned, but its practically impossible for me to enjoy and operating system with those luxuries.

Oh, and the KDE team could make some improvements. Personally, they seem to make KDE look pretty bad. Everyone I know that has tried it is not particularly impressed with its performance or first impressions. But who knows, maybe they'll try something new with KDE4, the default theme already looks very suitable without tweaking.

Quote:

THIS IS NOT UBUNTU.

I really haven't seen many of those going around lately. The only thing I see different are the desktop managers, the need for backports, and the use of sudo. Most ubuntu packages are completely incompatible with sid though, so thats an inconvenience to new users who just download whatever they can find looks right.

Quote:

sidux says they are debian enhanced

Not sure if I would say enhanced, we are debian. We use the same packages (excluding the kernel, but i'm sure the sid kernel would work too). We just have a few extras here and there. So is it safe to say Debian +2? Kind of like D&D... you guys probably aren't following.

But anyway, it's true, much like religion, debating on distribution differences is offensive to some people, and their retaliation can be less than elegant.

DeepDayze - Mar 27, 2008 - 01:21 AM
Post subject:

Wow, nice. You sure went out on a limb there, damentz, but I like your analogy though. sidux will NEVER become a ubuntu in any way shape or form Wink

UncleDeadley - Mar 27, 2008 - 01:43 AM
Post subject:

[quote="damentz"]

Quote:

So is it safe to say Debian +2? Kind of like D&D... you guys probably aren't following.

I would say it's more like Debian +2 fortification (been using 3ED for a bit).

slackrat - Mar 27, 2008 - 06:07 AM
Post subject:

Definitely some points there, and Ubuntu does fill a need in the linux market. As for enhanced debian, I am merely quoting from this forum and a number of comments and reviews.........like "Debian Spicy" or Debian with spices......etc..........

It is ..... a debian system, but allows people nervous about breaking their machines with the occaisonal sid storms.............by having devs break it first and report back to us.........Debian is still a little leery of saying its pure Debian, cause they think if you run sid, you can expect breakage occasionally and you must know what you're doing. They don't feel smxi is necessary to run sid. Then again, they dont recommend sid either. I like Sid, so sidux gives me a sid that is much harder to break if I RTFM and watch for D-U warnings. Thats all.....I had no intention of being combative on that front.

I still have things to learn in Debian, and more importantly, I hate long installs if I bork my machine..........can't beat the ten minute one disk install, and the fact that folks are warning us when to upgrade or not. Enhancements are usually a good thing ......but may cause a purist to comment Debian is Debian and sidux is close to pure Debian but.......................

I have etch for a production machine and tend to use slack and sidux on my laptop which also has production uses since I travel alot. Slack gives me extreme stability and sidux gives me a shortcut to running Debian without being stuck on limited bandwidth that would make a netinstall a real PITA..........and I like runnning it with more knowledgeable folks blazing the trail for that reason.

Ubuntu has some good points, sure....If I think of some, I'll get back to you.... Razz

But unless they change their attitude about Debian ? (Where is debian mentioned on their home page? it was there, then it wasnt , then it was etc) and
start giving back more than they have taken? Fsck em. JMO.

The THIS IS NOT UBUNTU is often on the topic on IRC Debian chat....so they arent' flooded with buntu questions......they may have removed it now, I havent been on IRC in a while. This shouldn't be necessary to state, but it was clearly a problem for a while.

IMO, yes, sidux is running Debian sid with some helpful enhancements....and thats a good thing. I've run pure Sid and eventually broke it, I seldom break sidux by upgrade here tho. Another good thing. A distro by any other name would smell just as sweet.....heh

cheers

shame - Mar 27, 2008 - 07:47 AM
Post subject:

slackrat wrote:

Of course the problem is, the more ubuntu is linked to debian, the more ubuntu users may go to debian forums and irc and such looking for answers because they see a common base.

We can't really complain that ubuntu are trying to forget debian then tell people ubuntu is not debian when they ask questions.

Of course there are a lot of differences between debian and ubuntu but there are also many similarities in the way they work and in the past I've often found help on ubuntu forums for a debian question when I couldn't find the answer anywhere else.

dptxp - Mar 27, 2008 - 02:40 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

Of course there are a lot of differences between debian and ubuntu but there are also many similarities in the way they work and in the past I've often found help on ubuntu forums for a debian question when I couldn't find the answer anywhere else.

The experienced Ubintu users are fully aware of Debian. The newbies need to go through their nursery classes in Ubuntu before going for Debian. Adding and removing programs using add/remove is so simple. And no clumsy menu in Gnome. You can ask any question there, you will not be tortured however elementary your question is.

Just like MS Window$ has been responsible for the growth of Desktop Linux, Ubuntu has been playing a huge role in bringing users to Linux stream. Debian and sidux surely are not the distros for those who have never used Linux.

Ubuntu has forums for other distros and as said by shame you get help for other distros there. I came to know about sidux in Ubuntu forums.

12900+ users online in Ubuntu Forums a few days back. Top ranking in Distrowatch. Ubuntu may not be pure Debian, but it is Linux. My first Linux. My kids' (college going) desktop OS.

absolut - Mar 27, 2008 - 03:59 PM
Post subject:

actually, we can rename the thread title now Smile

dptxp - Mar 27, 2008 - 04:32 PM
Post subject:

absolut wrote:

actually, we can rename the thread title now Smile

Wonder why this was dug up from the grave. There was no need. All is cool as far as I can see.

absolut - Mar 27, 2008 - 04:40 PM
Post subject:

dptxp wrote:

absolut wrote:

actually, we can rename the thread title now Smile

Wonder why this was dug up from the grave. There was no need. All is cool as far as I can see.

well, you can blame slackrat, if you like.... Laughing

texasmike - Mar 27, 2008 - 04:56 PM
Post subject:

As the new kid on the block, this forum seems very friendly. In contrast to the Debian forum where you can get some /real/ heat. It's nothing personal there, just need some crust to survive.

And just to remark on what was said about *buntu / sudo - I agree 100%. What they have done is a shame. They have created an all-purpose root killer.

Crust - Mar 27, 2008 - 05:06 PM
Post subject:

<jk>
hehehe, to rename this thread in Debian:

sudo rename this_thread
</jk>

dibl - Mar 27, 2008 - 05:07 PM
Post subject:

It's friendly enough. There has to be a balance -- I'm sure we all understand how (potentially) desirable it is to add to the base of daily Linux users. But, when a poster obviously can't be bothered even to run a simple Google search ...... grrrrrrrrrr!

JackieBrown - Mar 27, 2008 - 05:35 PM
Post subject:

dptxp wrote:

Wonder why this was dug up from the grave. There was no need. All is cool as far as I can see.

Then why post and continue?

You want to see unfriendly, try asking about synaptic, gnome, autoremove, aptitude, upgrading in X, using testing, etc...

And yes, we are tired of these questions but no one makes anyone respond to them.

But the devs and moderators are entiled to act how they want. It's their distro.

h2 - Mar 27, 2008 - 06:09 PM
Post subject:

compared to other very large forums I've been part of, sidux is ridiculously friendly. The ones I did would slice most questionable or policy violating comments instantly, remove, edit, over mod, etc, and would enforce an implicit, but never explicit, pro corporate position because so many of their members were in the relevant industries. They would even ban all negative comments on certain trade practices that are totally scummy because they ran forums on those practices.

And this is the biggest forum in its area globally.

On mine, I remove I would guess 50% of all postings and ban probably 10% of new users without even talking to them, but that's because I am interested primarily in content and not chat in those forums, and I do not want the forums to even attract traffic for topic areas I don't want to pay hosting fees to serve.

So sidux is extremely friendly if you compare it to others in similar technical areas, although some users simply will never give up on pushing certain points no matter how many times the devs and mods spend energy and volunteer time telling them to stop.

But even with that in mind, guys like you are still essentially welcomed as potentially positively contributing members, because sometimes there are positive contributions.

devs have to respsond because a forum is a searchable knowledge database, so any thread on that type of topic has to be responded to lest some user come to the thread via forum search or search engine result. In the type of large scale forum I mentioned above, such threads would be removed and users would be pointed to a library posting that explains the question.

That's how it is, plus of course the annoyingly restrictive legal problems any german hosted forum has without deep pockets to pay for legal problems.

But I really wish slam could implement a time out on threads so that dead threads cannot be resurected, that's not a good thing, there should be an autolock at x weeks/months to avoid this type of thing.

DeepDayze - Mar 27, 2008 - 06:57 PM
Post subject:

Another idea is to have an archive forum for good threads to be archived. Archived threads should be locked to keep users from posting in them. Just like the bug report forums are locked, yet kept for perusal.

shame - Mar 27, 2008 - 07:45 PM
Post subject:

Well since I'm the one that started this thread, I think I have to say, since I first made the comments about the unfriendliness of the forum, I think it has changed a lot.
I've especially noticed this since an absence from reading or contributing in the forum. I've been reading quite a bit, catching up and I would say it is as friendly now as when it first started.

At the time I started this thread I certainly did get an impression of unfriendliness all around the forum, maybe it was just a bad month or two?

I'm pleased things have picked up since then.

JackieBrown - Mar 28, 2008 - 12:29 AM
Post subject:

h2 wrote:

Please don't think that I mean unfriendly in terms of liberty or "free speech."

I have never seen a post edited (except for legal reason) and I have only seen one post deleted (admitly mine - it deserved to be. I took a private conversation and posted it in a thread.))

The flowing of ideas is at the heart of open source whether the ideas be techinical or not (case in point the worlds economy thread) and that can be viewed here or almost any linux dev's websites.

I say a lot of things in a way that comes of abrasive. It is something that effects me greatly at work. I am working on that h2. Please don't take my critisms as a lack of respect to the work you due or to your ideas. We just have different viewpoints at times which is probably because we are different people Wink

I have frequented many forums where I saw threads locked constantly and users with hundreds or thousands of posts deleted. (Funny how on those forums there are tons of "guest" posts even though they have anomonous posting disabled.)

texasmike - Mar 28, 2008 - 01:01 AM
Post subject:

Get lost, shame

Laughing

hoodwink - Mar 28, 2008 - 01:09 AM
Post subject:

I haven't followed each and every post in this lengthy thread, but I'll toss in my $.02 anyway. I've been on board since October 2007. I have found the tone always to be "just right" and quite friendly, and I have not noticed any change in tone over the months. sidux users and developers seem to bend over backwards to help everyone. Keep up the good work.

grasshopper - Mar 28, 2008 - 12:29 PM
Post subject:

One thing to consider is that a forum will reflect on it's disto, for good or for bad. Cases in point are the PCLinuxOS forums and the Ubuntu forums. The PCLOS forums have a bad rap in some places, with many regarding the staff there as rude and overbearing. The Ubuntu forums are highly regarded as newbie friendly and it actually does help the distro quite a bit. I see posts there all the time saying the main reason they run Ubuntu is because of the great community. I am not making a comment on either community. I'm just pointing out how some people see things.

The sidux forums are friendly enough but doesn't come across as noob friendly. My impression, anyway. I think that may be a Debian trait in general. Debian sort of expects it's users to read and learn, rather than be spoon fed.

justaguy - Mar 28, 2008 - 05:27 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

this forum seems very friendly. In contrast to the Debian forum where you can get some /real/ heat

In my view, I think forums, as they tend to grow over time become almost a "microcosm" as it were, and naturally are going to attract a share of individuals that feel rather (too?) strongly about their distro. As a longtime "tweaker" and "OS hobbiest" I can only say that for the amount of time some of us spend nurturing our machines, it almost can be seen as an investment.

Enough said, I guess........

zubrug - Mar 28, 2008 - 11:03 PM
Post subject:

I have done more googling with sidux than any other distro, in fear of someone responding to my post............ and then I find this great big group hug thread! wtf
sidux rock's

h2 - Mar 28, 2008 - 11:14 PM
Post subject:

zubrug, the odds of a friendly response rise in direct proportion to the effort you make before asking. Other cases are asking to avoid error in the future, I think that was my first kanotix post for example.

One fairly solid way to get a bad response is to do no work at all, make no effort at all, then demand that something be fixed to be the way some distro x does it even if it's not at all in sidux philosophy, then to start arguing about why that's silly. I believe this method will eliminate group hug tendencies quite reliably in almost all cases.

Other methods that are equally effective, this one is my personal all time favorite, is to say you really want osx, but that you can't afford a mac, then to start complaining that sidux isn't osx and why don't the devs make it like it so you don't have to pay for osx.

CaesarTjalbo - Mar 29, 2008 - 12:44 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

sudo doesn't work like it's supposed to. is bug fix now!!!11!! sidux is moving further away from ubuntu and that's stupid, look at what happened to debian when they moved away from ubuntu: nobody uses debian anymore. u're really retarded if u don't make gnome default. and i want osx

------------

Friendly is nice but answers are nicer, even if it's just recognition that something's indeed a problem but the solution is unknown.
If you're unsure about your tone, imagine the other people on the board are gorgeous women/ men/ whatever you fancy. Show your best side!

slackrat - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:34 AM
Post subject:

LMAO @ the 'more like ubuntu quote thread.........what some call friendly support (no names mentioned) Razz

I call zealous and often uninformed.....like someone here said recently: on a scale of too friendly / too unfriendly / just right? The balance here tends to be just right. That distro forum which shall not be named btw also has the most banned/locked/ threads and a very overbearing mod staff.....just my opinion, but I don't think I'm alone in that.

Never actually saw sidux hijack and lock and hide a thread they didn't agree with.

But that last buntu quote really makes one wonder if their shouldn't be a section similar to the one on remote exploits 'backtrack' site.......a Hall of Shame where really off the wall and **multimedia** demands go to give people willing to learn and / or help a giggle. And to point out to really new folks what DOESN'T work, when requesting free volunteer support .....

Now can we please lock and archive this thread so some moron doesn't revive it from the dead? Razz

VernDog - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:44 AM
Post subject:

grasshopper wrote:

One thing to consider is that a forum will reflect on it's disto, for good or for bad. Cases in point are the PCLinuxOS forums
...
The sidux forums are friendly enough but doesn't come across as noob friendly. My impression, anyway. I think that may be a Debian trait in general. Debian sort of expects it's users to read and learn, rather than be spoon fed.

I had a similar experience with PCLOS in the past. I made a comparative statement about my Windows was much faster than my PCLOS and was there any way I could speed things up --services that could be deleted, could eINIT replace the stock init. Things of that nature. I got raked over the coals by some, but others who understood my comments gave me some helpful information. Some people have issues that I can't possibly know about, so I guess it's come into a forum and take the good with the bad.

It's the kind words and the helpful comments that I want to remember and try and let go of harsh unwarranted rants.

slackrat - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:08 AM
Post subject:

OK, that was weird....I just wrote about 'off the wall and **multimedia** demands, as in luser and spoonfed types **multimedia**? And an autoedit I'm guessing changed the L word to ''multimedia' .....Halp! the machines are taking over..........!

They are efficient tho, maybe we should let them?

cheers

slam - Mar 29, 2008 - 10:10 AM
Post subject:

@slackrat: Please have a look at our code of conduct, which is binding for every sidux.com user. Your case relates to 4., and yes this is done by an automated word filter.

Greetings,
Chris

shame - Mar 29, 2008 - 01:18 PM
Post subject:

Yea but at least I can say I made a booboo without it coming out as ****oo as happened on one forum (PCLOS I think).

That is censorship gone mad. I was told it was because the word boob might offend female users Shocked

RazberrieTart - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:11 PM
Post subject:

More boobs I say ! Very Happy

DeepDayze - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:37 PM
Post subject:

shame wrote:

shame, you can type booboo as boo-boo and that should work and not get *incorrectly* censored.

dptxp - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:48 PM
Post subject:

shame wrote:

seems to generate opposite reaction. Very Happy

VorianGrey - Mar 29, 2008 - 05:54 PM
Post subject:

I find these forums very friendly and the staff really knows their stuff. A very nice change of pace. I hate forums where you ask a question and 25 noobs start out by posting "I don't know." Very Happy

muchan - Mar 29, 2008 - 11:31 PM
Post subject:

I don't know other forums but I think this forum is friendly.

(just to start reply with "i don't know"...)

op4latino - Mar 30, 2008 - 05:09 AM
Post subject:

RazberrieTart wrote:

More boobs I say ! Very Happy

where?
oh, ditto

Forge - Mar 30, 2008 - 09:47 AM
Post subject:

I've been to a lot of distro forums, and IMHO the sidux forum has the most friendly community, and most willing to help, no matter if the user is newbie or veteran. That is part of what makes sidux a top notch distro to use Smile

Wirechief - Mar 30, 2008 - 12:13 PM
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I really enjoy the comments in this section, I have it book marked under daily laughs.
but seriously if you really want help you need to provide as much detail as you possibly
can regarding your problem and under the conditions you expereience it along with supporting logs, kernel information. H2 your comments are right on track as usual.

justaguy - Mar 30, 2008 - 01:36 PM
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Quote:

if you really want help you need to provide as much detail as you possibly
can regarding your problem and under the conditions you expereience it along with supporting logs, kernel information

I understand this is an essential step to logical trouble-shooting, however, for someone unfamiliar to linux, let alone unfamiliar to sidux, this "step" can be an daunting task. I am not unfamiliar with linux and I often get sweaty palms prior to posting for fear that I have not done the proper degree of "homework".

Does there exist a source of recommended info needed for lets say posting sound issues or video issues for example?, which might include the use of certain commands with their respective outputs to be included in an initial post? That is my weakness, I don't always know what I should include unless I read through many many posts, not that this is a bad thing, because often times my question or issue gets resolved prior to posting. I agree that a person should "research" their issue prior to posting, but due to the lack of knowledge or experience this is not always something that can concieveably be done by the poster. Often times, I know I am guilty of passing over questions because of no evidence that person tried to help themselves, or so it seemed.

We should continue to empower people, agreed, but remain helpful at the same time. The community is small and managable enough at this point that we don't have to peruse through hundreds of daily posts, unlike what has become of the *buntu forums, to do our "homework" of researching our problems. I am so glad that the sidux community hasn't become too large too fast to disenfranchise our continuity as a welcoming community.

I hope that was understandable.................

Cheers

hubi - Mar 30, 2008 - 02:00 PM
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justaguy,

just describe the problem, the hardware and that you need help being guided through forensics. Surely someone will help out.

It's acutally just annoying if someone seems to have no clue like ("I have a computer and sound does not work"), you type out basic stuff, and the answer is: "oh, I have done that already, but thanks anyway". Then I surely prefer the pub round the corner to further communication.

But guiding someone through a problem and helping solving it is not a bore, because someone is really happy after that. So no wet palms needed Wink

hubi

VernDog - Mar 30, 2008 - 04:40 PM
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justaguy wrote:

I understand this is an essential step to logical trouble-shooting, however, ... disenfranchise our continuity as a welcoming community.

I hope that was understandable.................

Very understandable!
I agree with your post totally. Sometimes, and I'm not saying its here, but its the "fault" of the forum. Web masters not laying out the sub-forums correctly, or confusing topics. Someone comes into a forum community brand spanking new and intimidate by all the rules he read through.

One forum I'm thinking of, and its not even Linux or Windows per say, but the forum was notorious for lashing out on almost anyone without tenure.

Anyway, this brand new guy stated his case in such a beautiful precise professional manner, that he got even the moderators giving him help!

The guy even stated something to the effect that he has thick skin and broad shoulders, etc. I often remember that post of his for some reason.

I'm not sure what it is, but some guys have a nack for getting people to help them while others rub people the wrong way.

Thanks "justaguy", for your post.

lee - Mar 31, 2008 - 05:09 PM
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justaguy wrote:

Quote:

if you really want help you need to provide as much detail as you possibly
can regarding your problem and under the conditions you expereience it along with supporting logs, kernel information

I understand this is an essential step to logical trouble-shooting, however, for someone unfamiliar to linux, let alone unfamiliar to sidux, this "step" can be an undaunting task. I am not unfamiliar with linux and I often get sweaty palms prior to posting for fear that I have not done the proper degree of "homework".

Does there exist a source of recommended info needed for lets say posting sound issues or video issues for example?, which might include the use of certain commands with their respective outputs to be included in an initial post? That is my weakness, I don't always know what I should include unless I read through many many posts, not that this is a bad thing, because often times my question or issue gets resolved prior to posting. I agree that a person should "research" their issue prior to posting, but due to the lack of knowledge or experience this is not always something that can concieveably be done by the poster. Often times, I know I am guilty of passing over questions because of no evidence that person tried to help themselves, or so it seemed.

We should continue to empower people, agreed, but remain helpful at the same time. The community is small and managable enough at this point that we don't have to peruse through hundreds of daily posts, unlike what has become of the *buntu forums, to do our "homework" of researching our problems. I am so glad that the sidux community hasn't become too large too fast to disenfranchise our continuity as a welcoming community.

I hope that was understandable.................

Cheers

You know, sometimes even adults dont entirely live up to the the responsibility that 'being' an adult suggests..maybe it has to do with how we are raised, what kind of church we goto, what kind of stress we are under yadda yadda..

I remember fonldy , my dear grandmother saying to me years ago, that people seem angrier these days, and I think she was right.

I dont know if its the 'new' generation coming along with near zero patience or the adults out there going senile Smile

, but something is defintely WRONG here. Wink

You seem like a nice enough person, though clearly I'm new here and dont know you very well, but from your first sentence out of the box, you seem to be more worried that you might get scolded ? for not helping someone quite correctly instead of the fact that your helping ( with I presume good intentions ) period, which isn't that what GOD/Jesus/name-your-hero/prophet wants us to be all about in thought and deed ?

I am sorry to drag us into 'religion', but honeslty I dont see how as a species we can 'be' who we are supposed to be if we dont remember the important things we get from such places, especially when its clear those simple things have been forgotten and possibly replaced with sheer hostility &/or impatience.

If you can't handle posting because your trying to help someone, then you have no business replying in the first place; take a breath, confront your 'demons', and if you can't be 'neighborly' dont bother at all because you do FAR more harm than good.

I imagine a scenary like this:

User zyz, asks a question, though it might be really really stupid or of the calibur where they did not what,,,RTFM ?..it would go like this:

from tim,

I can't access my usb device as im getting some weird TODO: blah blah error from kde I guess ?

answer: well Tim, Im sorry your having trouble but you need to yadda yadda; and oh btw for future reference please see this manual which answers that and many other qiuestions you may have, and if your question isn't there feel free to post here anytime;)

there, that was refreshing wasn't it..if you can't handle that then for petes sake why bother at all..dont we all deserve a little bit of love, or has humanity, as my grandmother said, kinda gotten a bit angry..

Justaguy, imo anyway for what its worth here, is that the only 'homework' you need to be worried about is the one that says neighbor helps neighbor ; and since we're in a election year Im proud to reference Hillary Clinton ( NO that is not why I posted here, but it does mirror my sentiments here 100% ) by saying that what Im outlining has alot to do with 'it takes a village'..to raise a child , to help people, and the list goes on and on..the village suffers alot without the neighbor mentality and thats what my grandmother meant Im sure, because her 'era' was all about being that good neighbor Wink

thx for listening
lee

dptxp - Mar 31, 2008 - 06:27 PM
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The success of a Desktop Distro is decided by its user base. New users tend to go for those distros where they feel comfortable in asking for help. No one should be snubbed for asking silly questions, unless the person posting is not polite. Most users burn their iso image for the first time when they go for their first Linux. I am one of them.

Most Linux Distros are free of cost and support, the developers do it out of sheer passion. Support is via Forums. The reputation of a Distro depends a lot on its Forum culture. It is for the moderators to be tolerant and it is for the moderators to set the culture. Forums can decide the fate of a Distro.

There shall always be some users who will post something inflammatory. It can be total criticism of another Distro, it can even be criticism of a Desktop Manager (The famous KDE vs Gnome). Users tend to identify themselves with OS and even the programs they use. They should understand that every software has its users, pros and cons.

I do not bash Window$. It has been my first (GUI) OS, still loaded. If Linux Desktop has attained such maturity levels, it is because of Window$ (the neccessity and will to compete with it)

An user should do his homework to his best abilities and not hesitate to post in a polite manner. Guide him well and next time he guides other well. Maybe add a section to manual on basics for absolute newbies and suggest them to read it first.

In Ubuntu Forums you choose your answer, in Debian you ask what they find hard to answer. Very Happy

I feel happy and at ease in all the forums I use- Ubuntu, sidux, Kanotix and Puppy.

sidux forums are as friendly as one can expect.

kelmo - Apr 01, 2008 - 06:01 AM
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Just to extend this thread a little bit further, I've been subject to a couple of outbusrts in our IRC chat room in the last two days, which makes it an unfriendly place for me atm. Will get over it, but noted here anyway.

DeepDayze - Apr 01, 2008 - 01:54 PM
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Hi kelmo, sorry if you have been subject to some rather unpleasant outbursts from rather uninformed individuals. Seems that the IRC channel has had its share of trolls and misfits coming through to cause enough trouble for you and others.

dptxp - Apr 01, 2008 - 06:31 PM
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cheer up kelmo, just cheer up.

RazberrieTart - Apr 03, 2008 - 05:45 AM
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I was almost wondering if someone was going to say "Cheer up emo kid !"

'runs away giggling'

DeepDayze - Apr 03, 2008 - 05:14 PM
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LOL tartie Very Happy

Bet kelmo will ROFL at that one..ehehehe